As I write this, Nottingham Forest are (almost certainly) the oldest club in the English Football League. Less certain, in fact, is whether I care. Since the end of last (2018-19) season, I've been through the most 'traumatic' time of my 45 years as a Forest fan. Yes, I know using the term 'traumatic' is a bit of a stretch here. But I insist, relative to the usual emotional roller coaster you typically experience as a fan of any club - these last few months have been off the scale for me. The callous sacking of my football hero, Martin O'Neill, after just over five months in the job - a manager who, I still maintain, has the best record of any from the UK - really shook and disgusted me. His time as a Forest legend has been one of the key subjects of these pages and although I had never intended focusing much on current events, I started to do so towards the back of last season only because of Martin's return. Duncan McKenzie is the main reason I became a Forest fan but Martin O'Neill and John Robertson were not far behind in importance in reinforcing me as one. The fact that Martin's record as manager at Forest, even in the short time (19 games) he was in charge, was actually pretty good - just makes the feeling of betrayal worse for me. But the most upsetting aspect of this sordid tale, even more than stories that he was the target of a player revolt, has been the way a massive slice (maybe even a majority) of Forest "fans" actually welcomed his firing. The nonchalant way the vast majority of the club's "fan base" have been complicit in the exercise of brushing this whole affair under the carpet is unforgivable to me. It's made me seriously question what I have in common with these people and as I type this, a few days before my sixtieth birthday, I am not sure if I can honestly call myself a "Forest supporter" any more.
So, more out of a sense of duty to complete the project, than the labour of love that started it, I will endeavor to pull together a third season of blog posts about Nottingham Forest's amazing three year period at the pinnacle of European football. I'm not planning to spend as long on it is I have in previous years. My thinking is to do just one per month this time - and give each one a monthly pun somehow in the title. They won't be as comprehensive as before but I'll try to do the "miracle men" justice by plotting their path to their incredible retention of the European Cup and (almost) clinching a League Cup treble. Each post will focus on Forest's opponent's history where appropriate (like this one, especially) but will also trace what's happened in the forty years since. Stand by, then, for lots of moaning-old-bugger rants.
To kick off, I couldn't resist gloating about the fact that Stoke City, Forest's first home league opponents 40 years ago, seem to have finally been called out for pretending, for years and years, to be the second oldest league club. Bizarrely, the truth seems to have come out at exactly the same, sad, time that Notts County were themselves relegated from the football league. This basically means that, for one season at least, instead of Stoke City becoming world renowned as the oldest league club, the honour instead must pass to Nottingham Forest.
So, I'll do a bit on the history of Stoke City football club, plotting their record right up to their promotion back to the first division at the end of the 1978-79. I'll look at some of the players that have graced both clubs, notably, of course, Peter Shilton. I'll summarise Forest's very impressive start to the season, at least in their games played to the end of August 1979, including the beginning of their attempt to retain the League Cup and highlight their two new signings in the summer after the Munich European Cup win.
I'll end by having a good old moan about the club I used to follow and speculate about how this business of being a "supporter" works these days. How can it be that you can start to follow a club so randomly, but even when you have good reason to end it, you feel guilty about doing so? Can it, in fact, ever end? Is being a true fan literally for life? Am I really tied to being Forest till I die? Or is it right that certain circumstances can make you, or should make you, think again? Anyway, more on all that at the end.
First, let's look back to the summer of 1979. Forest, newly crowned Champions of Europe were preparing for the start of the 1979-80 season and had made three new signings - but replacements, note, rather than a strengthening of the squad which stayed at around just 18 or less.
Previously: The 1978-79 European Cup Final
The two newly elected clubs struggled and finished as the bottom two.
Forest's turn would come soon, though. They won the Football Alliance themselves the next season and on the basis of that were finally elected straight into the league's first division for the 1892-93 season and not the second, which was newly formed. So thanks, Football League, for that, at least.
So, Forest faced Stoke F.C. in a "first class" competitive match for the first time. On 10th September 1892 Forest hosted them and lost 3-4. The Potters won the return match 3-0 at the Victoria Ground a few weeks later as they enjoyed their best ever season so far. Forest finished a reasonable 10th place.
The following season, Forest turned the tables on "The Potters" having finished above them in the league and the better of the two league matches. Forest lost away 2-1 but won the home game 2-0.
Forest would, in fact, win the next three encounters between the clubs and, apart from the 1895-96 season, the East Midland club finished above the one from the West for the next nine seasons. This is the only time either club has beaten the other four times on the trot.
Stoke certainly seemed to be enjoying a charmed life and in 1897-98, despite finishing bottom with the new second division looming... phew, what a relief, the Football League decided to expand the first division and so no team was relegated.
Forest and Stoke finally met in the F.A. Cup in 1902 in the quarter final. Forest won 2-0 but, alas lost to then non-league Southampton in the semi-finals.
Like buses, the two played each other twice more in the next season's Cup too. This time in the second round (round of 16). After a 0-0 draw in Nottingham, Stoke won the replay 2-0 but they too did not proceed any further, being beaten 3-0 by Derby at the Baseball Ground. That defeat switched the last five game average from a positive record to a negative one, from Forest's point of view against Stoke for the first time in nine years.
After 14 seasons together with Stoke in the top flight, Forest were finally relegated to Division Two at the end of the 1905-06 season. They wouldn't meet again, in a competitive match for 14 years.
Forest had had the better of the contests so far, having won 15 out of the 31 matches, losing 11.
Forest bounced straight back to the First division after their relegation, as Stoke were themselves relegated. The season after, both Forest and Stoke finished mid table in their respective divisions but for Stoke, disaster struck as they had hit financial trouble and the club became liquidated and resigned from the league at the end of the season.
Stoke and bottom Club Lincoln City left the league and were replaced by Tottenham Hotspur and Bradford Park Avenue.
So, for the next seven seasons, up until the start of the First World War, there was no Stoke Ramblers, Stoke F.C., or Stoke City in the league. The club did reform, using the assets of the old club, in 1909 and played in the Birmingham & District and then the Southern League. I'm not sure who makes the rules about this sort of thing but the fact that the club went bust and had to reform, and only regained their league place after a twelve year absence can only detract from their claim to be the 2nd oldest club in the league. Stoke have been a member of the league for 113 seasons, Forest, despite joining four years later, have been in the league for 117 seasons.
Shall I? Shan't I? Ok, go on then!! ... I can't resist... Forest, of course, the original reds, have always played in their current colours (apart from their very first season, in 1865 (not 1868).
The spoils were evenly shared for the first three seasons, with both teams winning two and loosing two, with two draws.
In the third of those season, in 1921-22, Forest and Stoke both won promotion back to the top flight.
Both teams struggled against relegation but Forest managed to escape while Stoke returned back to the second division. The two games against each other were tight affairs, both 1-0 away wins.
Stoke bought the ground around this time and invested in the Butler street stand taking the capacity to around 50,000. The Victoria Ground was looking like this in those days...
Stoke finally became Stoke City in 1925 to celebrate when Stoke-on-Trent was granted City status, just as Forest finally lost their struggle to stay in the first division and found themselves relegated back in Division Two with The Potters. City had marginally the better of the two games between the clubs, winning 2-1 at the City Ground and drawing 1-1 at the Victoria Ground. But it was scant consolation as they found themselves relegated again, this time to the Third Division North.
But Stoke bounced straight back to resume their rivalry with Forest the very next season.
The clubs went their separate ways for a few years after 1932-33 season when Stoke won the second division to return to the top flight again. What was the cause of this sudden resurgence, you may wonder? A certain young player of the name Matthews had made his debut for the club at the age of 17 the season before. Things were about to change for Stoke City.
It would be another 21 years before Forest and Stoke city played at the same level again. With Matthews, Stoke were transformed into a top side. It's amazing to think how the club held on to him. He was born in Hanley, just half an hours' walk from the ground although he would probably have preferred to walk in the other direction to Vale Park as he was a Port Vale fan as a boy. These days he'd have been signed for one of the oligarchs before he reached 18, I'm sure.
Of course, as we all know, Peter Shilton was one of Cloughie's first major signings for Forest and would go on to make 202 appearances for The Reds, almost twice as many as for Stoke, in his amazing 1,005 league appearances.
It all seemed to be paying off in the very closely run 1974-75 season. At the end of February, Stoke City were top of the First Division and looked as good as anyone. But their form fell away and they ended up in 5th place, four points behind title winners Derby County.
My opening gambit was always that my backing of O'Neill was not just based on emotion - even though, of course, it was a part of it. He's a Forest legend that I had the privilege of watching a lot. I reckon I must have watched over 80% of his appearances for the club. I also was lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time to witness his first 5 1/2 years of (very successful) management at Wycombe Wanderers.
But it's not just emotion. I maintain, even now, that Martin O'Neill actually has the best record of any current (although after his sacking, clearly that word can't be used any more) UK-based manager. I urge any doubters to just look at the stats: Apart from a six month stint at Norwich where promises made to him about funds were not kept, and Sunderland, where he was sacked even though they were in the same position as when he joined, he has improved every side he's managed. He took Wycombe Wanderers from GM Vauxhall Conference to the third tier in successive seasons, with three Wembley wins on the way.
At Leicester, he got them promotion to the top tier in his first season and also got them to Wembley three times.
So, in successive seasons O'Neill managed teams from GMVC, Div 4, Div 3, Div 2, Div 1 and then Europe. Nobody has ever done that before or since. It's unlikely to ever be repeated. At Celtic he reversed a long era of Rangers dominance and won 7 trophies in 5 years with an 80.7% return on points, better than anyone before him bar Jock Stein.
Which current manager, born in the UK, can boast a record like this? I put it to you the answer is "none"....
Of course the retort from many ignorant and condescending Forest fans on this was to claim that anyone could manage Celtic. Scotland was a "pub league" etc. Social media threads would often end up with me, and a couple of Celtic fans, arguing with Forest fans about the merits of O'Neill. Great supporters, these - they would rather slag off a Forest legend than back him.
I would counter that even if you took away his time at Celtic (and Grantham, presumably that was a "pub league" too) he still had a better record than almost all the managers in Forest's history. Really, only Cloughie is the exception.
...and Antonio Conte's Italy on the way - so much for being tactically out of his depth.
I reminded them that as late as the World Cup 2018 qualifying group, Ireland only lost one out of ten and made the play offs.
The whole Irish anti-O'Neill propaganda, which disloyal Forest fans gripped onto like nuggets of gold, seems to have arisen from an ungrateful Irish press after the one bad defeat against Denmark in the World Cup play offs. It seems one or two mardy Irish players were whingeing about being left out of the 5-1 defeat to Denmark - and that started the "bad vibe" thing going. Martin had to go for goals when a pretty good Denmark side went into the lead, let's be honest. That whole affair just seems totally unfair and incredibly ungrateful to me - most sickening to me is that a big slice of Forest fans were happy to repeat that disgusting gossip rather than stick up for one of the men who brought miracles to Trentside.
No-one was listening. It was as if they had all decided, even before he was appointed, that he was a "dinosaur" and no longer could understand the "modern game" - as if it had all suddenly changed since Ireland reached the World Cup play offs. It was as if they all preferred to believe the gossip in the Irish press than simply to look at his record.
Again and again I'd be told how he made tactical errors, he preferred "donkeys" like Darryl Murphy to players with skill. He played players out of position (he played Colback once as a left back) and - crime of all crimes - he kept the precious Joao Carvalho on the bench. Actually Carvalho did figure in 63% of Martin's teams but that was not enough. Apparently Joao should start every game, no question, and never to be used as a sub, I was assured. These 15-25 year olds have played X-Box and Football Manager long enough to know how good a talent he is and if Martin O'Neill can't see that, he must be an idiot. These youngsters clearly know better than a manager with a brilliant record spanning over 32 years. I tried to remind them that Carvalho did cost 13 million pounds and for that amount, you know, you kind of expect more than some lightweight "Fancy Dan" that flatters to deceive and then disappears when the going gets tough (like at home to Aston Villa, when O'Neill did play him from the start.)
So, more out of a sense of duty to complete the project, than the labour of love that started it, I will endeavor to pull together a third season of blog posts about Nottingham Forest's amazing three year period at the pinnacle of European football. I'm not planning to spend as long on it is I have in previous years. My thinking is to do just one per month this time - and give each one a monthly pun somehow in the title. They won't be as comprehensive as before but I'll try to do the "miracle men" justice by plotting their path to their incredible retention of the European Cup and (almost) clinching a League Cup treble. Each post will focus on Forest's opponent's history where appropriate (like this one, especially) but will also trace what's happened in the forty years since. Stand by, then, for lots of moaning-old-bugger rants.
To kick off, I couldn't resist gloating about the fact that Stoke City, Forest's first home league opponents 40 years ago, seem to have finally been called out for pretending, for years and years, to be the second oldest league club. Bizarrely, the truth seems to have come out at exactly the same, sad, time that Notts County were themselves relegated from the football league. This basically means that, for one season at least, instead of Stoke City becoming world renowned as the oldest league club, the honour instead must pass to Nottingham Forest.
So, I'll do a bit on the history of Stoke City football club, plotting their record right up to their promotion back to the first division at the end of the 1978-79. I'll look at some of the players that have graced both clubs, notably, of course, Peter Shilton. I'll summarise Forest's very impressive start to the season, at least in their games played to the end of August 1979, including the beginning of their attempt to retain the League Cup and highlight their two new signings in the summer after the Munich European Cup win.
I'll end by having a good old moan about the club I used to follow and speculate about how this business of being a "supporter" works these days. How can it be that you can start to follow a club so randomly, but even when you have good reason to end it, you feel guilty about doing so? Can it, in fact, ever end? Is being a true fan literally for life? Am I really tied to being Forest till I die? Or is it right that certain circumstances can make you, or should make you, think again? Anyway, more on all that at the end.
First, let's look back to the summer of 1979. Forest, newly crowned Champions of Europe were preparing for the start of the 1979-80 season and had made three new signings - but replacements, note, rather than a strengthening of the squad which stayed at around just 18 or less.
Previously: The 1978-79 European Cup Final
Clough & Taylor's Close-Season Transfer Dealings
Archie Gemmill, as I described in the last blog post, had a famous falling out with Cloughie on the night of the European Cup Final after Clough dropped Archie from the final team (along with Martin O'Neill, who didn't "do one"). It seems that Clough & Taylor decided pretty quickly that a consequence of that row would be Gemmill's departure from the club - he would never play for Forest again.
Forest's management duo acted pretty quickly, then, to secure a replacement in the form of the experienced (almost 400 league appearances for WBA and Manchester City) and highly rated midfielder, Asa Hartford, from City. He signed on 28th June for about £500,000.
But it wasn't until 4th August, that Gemmill was finally sold off to Birmingham City for a bargain price of £150,000, seemingly leaving his midfield slot open for Hartford. He became famous when David Coleman made one of the first of his "Coleman-balls" referring to him, in commentary, as a "whole-hearted player" and then embarrassingly apologising for it, as Asa was one of the few players at the time with a "hole in the heart" defect.
With the retirement of Frank Clark, one of the heroes from Munich, Forest were looking for a reliable left back to fill his boots and Clough & Taylor didn't hang about there either. Two weeks after one Frank's departure came the arrival of another, from Leeds United, brother of Eddie Gray for £500,000.
Forest's first match since their triumph in Munich, was a friendly against the top German club who made the Olimpiastadion their home at the time, Bayern Munich. Forest lost 5-0! But nine days later, they had settled down and won a pre-season tournament after beating Dynamo Bucharest 2-1 in the final.
So, under the watchful eyes of Clough and Taylor, Forest maintained a squad of around 18 players by judiciously dipping into the transfer market a few times. For a management pair with such a reputation for splashing the cash - Forest detractors are always keen to point to Trevor Francis as an example of their profligacy - they had been remarkably quiet in the transfer market. It also should be noted that one regular from last season, Colin Barrett, was injured so severely that he did not make a single competitive appearance for the club ever again. If anything, the depth of their squad had thus gone down.
In just over two years since Forest's promotion back to the first division this activity represented only their 6th, 7th and 8th purchases in the transfer market.
That's an average of one signing every 95 days and a total expenditure of around 2.8 million.
Contrast that financial frugality with today's market madness. As I type this, it's difficult to actually track how many signings Forest have made in the last two years and even harder to have any idea how many players are actually in their squad at the moment. It's a bit like estimating how many satellites orbit Saturn.
At a conservative estimate, Forest have signed around 43 players in the last three transfer windows, admittedly many on loan. This represents about one signing every 12 days and a total expenditure, if reported figures are to be believed, at almost 30 million. Assuming an average inflation rate of 4.11% since 1979 that figure represents more than twice (2.14x) as much as Forest spent during a longer period when they were Champions of Europe. This, remember, for a slightly above average second tier club.
Crazy, right? I mean, don't they realise you can only start with eleven players?
Anyway, getting back to the good old days... As time counted down to the start of the season for Forest's opener at Portman Road, on my 20th birthday, I want to rewind the clock back about 116 years to 1863 or thereabouts and take a look at Forest's opponents in their first home game of the season, due to be played on a strangely three-sided City Ground four days after Ipswich away - the visit of Stoke City, a famous old club indeed.
Forest's management duo acted pretty quickly, then, to secure a replacement in the form of the experienced (almost 400 league appearances for WBA and Manchester City) and highly rated midfielder, Asa Hartford, from City. He signed on 28th June for about £500,000.
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| Asa Hartford - Forest player |
On the same day, Forest sold their brilliant young reserve goalkeeper, Chris Woods, to Queens Park Rangers for £235,000. With Peter Shilton's hold on the "No. 1" shirt beyond question, it was probably good business for Forest to get a quarter of a million for a youngster who had not yet turned twenty and never played a single league game for the club, although he did, of course, help Forest win their first major trophy for years - the League Cup in 1977-78. Woods would actually go on to win 43 caps for England but QPR didn't benefit from the blossoming of that talent. They actually made a loss on him when he was sold to Norwich City a season later, having played all but one match for them in between. Clough and Taylor had clearly anticipated this move too, as they had acquired the services of another even more experienced (over 600 league appearances for Sunderland, Southampton and Birmingham City) and highly rated goalkeeper (Jim Montgomery) ten days earlier on a free transfer.
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| Woods out, Montgomery in |
With the retirement of Frank Clark, one of the heroes from Munich, Forest were looking for a reliable left back to fill his boots and Clough & Taylor didn't hang about there either. Two weeks after one Frank's departure came the arrival of another, from Leeds United, brother of Eddie Gray for £500,000.
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| Frank Gray - the perfect replacement for Frank Clark |
Forest's first match since their triumph in Munich, was a friendly against the top German club who made the Olimpiastadion their home at the time, Bayern Munich. Forest lost 5-0! But nine days later, they had settled down and won a pre-season tournament after beating Dynamo Bucharest 2-1 in the final.
So, under the watchful eyes of Clough and Taylor, Forest maintained a squad of around 18 players by judiciously dipping into the transfer market a few times. For a management pair with such a reputation for splashing the cash - Forest detractors are always keen to point to Trevor Francis as an example of their profligacy - they had been remarkably quiet in the transfer market. It also should be noted that one regular from last season, Colin Barrett, was injured so severely that he did not make a single competitive appearance for the club ever again. If anything, the depth of their squad had thus gone down.
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| Colin Barrett had played his last competitive game for Forest before the season began |
In just over two years since Forest's promotion back to the first division this activity represented only their 6th, 7th and 8th purchases in the transfer market.
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| Forest's transfer activity 1977-1979 |
That's an average of one signing every 95 days and a total expenditure of around 2.8 million.
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| 18-man squad 1979-80. You'd never fit them all in these days |
Contrast that financial frugality with today's market madness. As I type this, it's difficult to actually track how many signings Forest have made in the last two years and even harder to have any idea how many players are actually in their squad at the moment. It's a bit like estimating how many satellites orbit Saturn.
At a conservative estimate, Forest have signed around 43 players in the last three transfer windows, admittedly many on loan. This represents about one signing every 12 days and a total expenditure, if reported figures are to be believed, at almost 30 million. Assuming an average inflation rate of 4.11% since 1979 that figure represents more than twice (2.14x) as much as Forest spent during a longer period when they were Champions of Europe. This, remember, for a slightly above average second tier club.
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| Forest Today - one signing every 12 days - at least |
Crazy, right? I mean, don't they realise you can only start with eleven players?
Anyway, getting back to the good old days... As time counted down to the start of the season for Forest's opener at Portman Road, on my 20th birthday, I want to rewind the clock back about 116 years to 1863 or thereabouts and take a look at Forest's opponents in their first home game of the season, due to be played on a strangely three-sided City Ground four days after Ipswich away - the visit of Stoke City, a famous old club indeed.
Just How Old are Stoke City?
As a football fan with a statistical bent I have always understood that Stoke City were one of the oldest clubs in the Football League. When I was a lad, everyone knew that Notts County were the oldest - founded in 1862 - and then came Stoke City, founded in 1863 (as www.Historicalkits.co.uk puts it, this was "generally accepted".) Next, strangely, came Wrexham at 1864 and then, in 4th place were Nottingham Forest, founded in 1865.
Of course, many other clubs were founded earlier than that, but those that did either have gone extinct since then, or else did not become members of the football league. The oldest club in the world that still exists, is Sheffield FC. (not to be confused with United or Wednesday) who were formed in 1857. Nearby Hallam FC were formed a three years later and Cray Wanderers and Cambridge University AFC are two other clubs formed before Notts County that still exist. It hardly needs stating but when the Cambridge rules of Association Football were formulated, in 1848, one would imagine that they were defined so that clubs could actually play each other. (A seemingly knowledgeable source on Twitter, @SheffieldFC_com, however, assures me that clubs didn't play each other until Sheffield v Hallam, using the Sheffield Rules.)
When the F.A. Cup began, in 1871, for example, none of the clubs above participated although both Maidenhead and Marlow are still playing as are Queens Park (founded in 1867) - in Scotland But details about which clubs were playing whom before the F.A, Cup is always very sketchy.
Talking of "sketchy" - and getting back to Stoke City - it seems that their long-standing claim that a club called "Stoke Ramblers" had been formed in 1863 is based more on gossip than any hard evidence and so in recent years football historians have been increasingly calling this into question.
Stoke City's own web site puts it like this...
The story that four ex-pupils from Charterhouse School in Godalming, Surrey, moved up north to work for North Staffordshire Railway and formed Stoke Ramblers, became a legend in the Potteries but when modern day historians started looking for evidence to verify the claims, none were found.
As Martyn Cook puts it "... this account of the club’s origins is undermined by a lack of evidence and major discrepancies with research being unable to identify the four supposed founders . The Charterhouse school records do not refer to a Phillpott and whilst there are multiple students that are listed with the surname Bell none fit into the appropriate time-frame. A Henry John Almond (a possible corruption of the name Armand) and a William MacDonald Matthews did attend the institution during the mid-nineteenth century but they would have been aged 12 and 13 respectively when the club was purportedly formed and had yet to finish their studies. In addition to this, the first contemporary reference of a football club existing in Stoke does not appear until 1868, five years after Stoke Ramblers were reportedly established, and it is highly unlikely that no comment, even a minor remark, would be made in the local press for five years.
Research by Martyn Cooke and Gary James has concluded that the traditional interpretation of the club’s origins is little more than a myth, although there are some links and connections to the truth, and that Stoke Ramblers were actually formed in 1868."
So, the awkward fact is that the earliest official record of Stoke "Ramblers" playing a game of football (and even that was a 15-a-side affair!) was in 1868. To be fair, records of their games were in great abundance from this time on, so there is little doubt that football was regularly being played in Stoke at the latest in 1868 but probably not much before.
www.HistoricalKits.co.uk is usually a reliable source of historical information about football clubs but their entries for Stoke's early representatives are illuminatingly vague...
In 1871 the name "Ramblers" was dropped and the club became known as just "Stoke Football Club" for a few years, playing in dark crimson (or maybe black?) and blue hoops...
Another thing that's sketchy about Stoke is when, exactly, their nickname became established. However, like much about their history, it just seems common sense that the club would be known as "The Potters" just as the whole industrial area around Stoke was called "The Potteries" or "The Staffordshire Potteries" as it became a center for the production of ceramics due to the local availability of clay, salt, lead and coal.
Folk around there also have a very distinctive accent...
Stoke merged with Stoke Victoria Cricket Club in 1878 and their name became part of the club's history as the club moved grounds and renamed it the Victoria Ground, which would remain their home for the next 119 years.
Although they had played in local (e.g. Staffordshire) competitions for years, Stoke's first national competitive match was recorded as being the F.A. Cup 1st round tie played on November 10th 1883. They were drawn at home to a Manchester XI and lost 1-2. I can't help, at this point, chipping in that Nottingham Forest had been participating in the F.A. Cup for five seasons before this. Forest's first recorded match in the Cup was away to Notts County on 16th November 1878. Forest won 3-1 and would go on to reach the semi finals where they lost 2-1 to the eventual cup winners Old Etonians. Notts County played in the competition the season before that and Sheffield FC started playing in it in the third season, in 1873.
See the infographic below for a summary of this "oldest club" business. The key aspect is the broad green band down the middle denoting league status for the clubs. Forest are the oldest, currently in the Football League.
Notice how comparatively young my two local Perth sides are. Perth ("Azzurri") Soccer Club have been going since 1948 but Glory are still the new kids on the block, only formed in 1995.
Stoke became a professional club in 1885 just in time for a major step forward in English football history, the commencement of the World's first football league.
Stoke (somehow) join the Football League
I can't help but gripe about the fact that Forest, despite their greater (than most) antiquity, were somehow overlooked when the Football League began in 1888. Notts County and Derby County both made the original 12, but not Forest. According to Mark Metcalf's "The Origins of the Football League - The first Season 1888/89", Forest's application to join (as well as that of Sheffield Wednesday and a Lancashire club called Halliwell) was rejected on the grounds that it would be impossible to find sufficient dates for any additional fixtures. Sure. Pull the other one!!
Of course, many other clubs were founded earlier than that, but those that did either have gone extinct since then, or else did not become members of the football league. The oldest club in the world that still exists, is Sheffield FC. (not to be confused with United or Wednesday) who were formed in 1857. Nearby Hallam FC were formed a three years later and Cray Wanderers and Cambridge University AFC are two other clubs formed before Notts County that still exist. It hardly needs stating but when the Cambridge rules of Association Football were formulated, in 1848, one would imagine that they were defined so that clubs could actually play each other. (A seemingly knowledgeable source on Twitter, @SheffieldFC_com, however, assures me that clubs didn't play each other until Sheffield v Hallam, using the Sheffield Rules.)
When the F.A. Cup began, in 1871, for example, none of the clubs above participated although both Maidenhead and Marlow are still playing as are Queens Park (founded in 1867) - in Scotland But details about which clubs were playing whom before the F.A, Cup is always very sketchy.
Talking of "sketchy" - and getting back to Stoke City - it seems that their long-standing claim that a club called "Stoke Ramblers" had been formed in 1863 is based more on gossip than any hard evidence and so in recent years football historians have been increasingly calling this into question.
Stoke City's own web site puts it like this...
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| Even Stoke's official web site admits the 1863 origin is just a "story". |
The story that four ex-pupils from Charterhouse School in Godalming, Surrey, moved up north to work for North Staffordshire Railway and formed Stoke Ramblers, became a legend in the Potteries but when modern day historians started looking for evidence to verify the claims, none were found.
As Martyn Cook puts it "... this account of the club’s origins is undermined by a lack of evidence and major discrepancies with research being unable to identify the four supposed founders . The Charterhouse school records do not refer to a Phillpott and whilst there are multiple students that are listed with the surname Bell none fit into the appropriate time-frame. A Henry John Almond (a possible corruption of the name Armand) and a William MacDonald Matthews did attend the institution during the mid-nineteenth century but they would have been aged 12 and 13 respectively when the club was purportedly formed and had yet to finish their studies. In addition to this, the first contemporary reference of a football club existing in Stoke does not appear until 1868, five years after Stoke Ramblers were reportedly established, and it is highly unlikely that no comment, even a minor remark, would be made in the local press for five years.
Research by Martyn Cooke and Gary James has concluded that the traditional interpretation of the club’s origins is little more than a myth, although there are some links and connections to the truth, and that Stoke Ramblers were actually formed in 1868."
So, the awkward fact is that the earliest official record of Stoke "Ramblers" playing a game of football (and even that was a 15-a-side affair!) was in 1868. To be fair, records of their games were in great abundance from this time on, so there is little doubt that football was regularly being played in Stoke at the latest in 1868 but probably not much before.
www.HistoricalKits.co.uk is usually a reliable source of historical information about football clubs but their entries for Stoke's early representatives are illuminatingly vague...
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| Stoke with a big fat question mark against it from 1863 |
In 1871 the name "Ramblers" was dropped and the club became known as just "Stoke Football Club" for a few years, playing in dark crimson (or maybe black?) and blue hoops...
Another thing that's sketchy about Stoke is when, exactly, their nickname became established. However, like much about their history, it just seems common sense that the club would be known as "The Potters" just as the whole industrial area around Stoke was called "The Potteries" or "The Staffordshire Potteries" as it became a center for the production of ceramics due to the local availability of clay, salt, lead and coal.
Folk around there also have a very distinctive accent...
Stoke merged with Stoke Victoria Cricket Club in 1878 and their name became part of the club's history as the club moved grounds and renamed it the Victoria Ground, which would remain their home for the next 119 years.
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| Early Stoke F. C. Kits |
Although they had played in local (e.g. Staffordshire) competitions for years, Stoke's first national competitive match was recorded as being the F.A. Cup 1st round tie played on November 10th 1883. They were drawn at home to a Manchester XI and lost 1-2. I can't help, at this point, chipping in that Nottingham Forest had been participating in the F.A. Cup for five seasons before this. Forest's first recorded match in the Cup was away to Notts County on 16th November 1878. Forest won 3-1 and would go on to reach the semi finals where they lost 2-1 to the eventual cup winners Old Etonians. Notts County played in the competition the season before that and Sheffield FC started playing in it in the third season, in 1873.
See the infographic below for a summary of this "oldest club" business. The key aspect is the broad green band down the middle denoting league status for the clubs. Forest are the oldest, currently in the Football League.
Notice how comparatively young my two local Perth sides are. Perth ("Azzurri") Soccer Club have been going since 1948 but Glory are still the new kids on the block, only formed in 1995.
Stoke became a professional club in 1885 just in time for a major step forward in English football history, the commencement of the World's first football league.
Stoke (somehow) join the Football League
Another of the lucky dozen was Stoke F. C. I say "lucky" - it was rather a case of "who you know" as their manager at the time, a Mr Harry Lockett, just happened to be on the original committee that organised the league and was elected the league's first secretary.
Stoke's first ever league fixture was at home to West Bromwich Albion on 8th September 1888. 4,524 spectators witnessed a 2-0 win by Albion. The next Saturday, they lost 5-1 at Aston Villa. It wasn't a great start to Stoke's league history and indeed they ended up getting the wooden spoon, ironically behind Derby and Notts County - some poetic justice there, at least.
Stoke's first ever league fixture was at home to West Bromwich Albion on 8th September 1888. 4,524 spectators witnessed a 2-0 win by Albion. The next Saturday, they lost 5-1 at Aston Villa. It wasn't a great start to Stoke's league history and indeed they ended up getting the wooden spoon, ironically behind Derby and Notts County - some poetic justice there, at least.
Note that, of the twelve, only three of the original dozen clubs have spent any time outside of the league. Stoke, as we will soon see, would be the first to drop out. Accrington Stanley would drop out of the league in 1892, only to return in 1921 before falling out of the league again in 1961. Their latest rising back from the ashes occurred in 2006. They are currently in their 51st season of league football. Of course the 3rd in the set are Notts County who dropped down to the National League last (2018-19) season.
Stoke finished last again in 1889-90, with even fewer points and so became the first club to be booted out of the league just two seasons into league history, having failed to get re-elected, and being replaced by Sunderland.
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| Stoke F.C.'s early league kits |
Stoke managed to bounce straight back though, as they won the second ever Football Alliance and so were elected into the league as one of two new clubs when it was expanded to 14 teams in 1891-92, alongside Darwen.
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| Football Alliance 1890-91 |
That season on the Football Alliance generated the first competitive games between the two clubs. Stoke beat Forest 2-1 at the Victoria Ground and the teams drew 2-2 in Nottingham. It's frustrating to note that Darwen got elected into the league, despite finishing mid table. Forest beat them 5-2 at home and drew 4-4 in Lancashire. Why not Forest, eh? ... Eh?
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| Stoke F. C. in 1890 - Football Alliance Champions |
The two newly elected clubs struggled and finished as the bottom two.
Forest's turn would come soon, though. They won the Football Alliance themselves the next season and on the basis of that were finally elected straight into the league's first division for the 1892-93 season and not the second, which was newly formed. So thanks, Football League, for that, at least.
So, Forest faced Stoke F.C. in a "first class" competitive match for the first time. On 10th September 1892 Forest hosted them and lost 3-4. The Potters won the return match 3-0 at the Victoria Ground a few weeks later as they enjoyed their best ever season so far. Forest finished a reasonable 10th place.
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| Forest and Stoke in the Football League together for the first time |
The following season, Forest turned the tables on "The Potters" having finished above them in the league and the better of the two league matches. Forest lost away 2-1 but won the home game 2-0.
Forest would, in fact, win the next three encounters between the clubs and, apart from the 1895-96 season, the East Midland club finished above the one from the West for the next nine seasons. This is the only time either club has beaten the other four times on the trot.
Stoke certainly seemed to be enjoying a charmed life and in 1897-98, despite finishing bottom with the new second division looming... phew, what a relief, the Football League decided to expand the first division and so no team was relegated.
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| Stoke's Miraculous Escape from Relegation |
Forest and Stoke finally met in the F.A. Cup in 1902 in the quarter final. Forest won 2-0 but, alas lost to then non-league Southampton in the semi-finals.
Like buses, the two played each other twice more in the next season's Cup too. This time in the second round (round of 16). After a 0-0 draw in Nottingham, Stoke won the replay 2-0 but they too did not proceed any further, being beaten 3-0 by Derby at the Baseball Ground. That defeat switched the last five game average from a positive record to a negative one, from Forest's point of view against Stoke for the first time in nine years.
After 14 seasons together with Stoke in the top flight, Forest were finally relegated to Division Two at the end of the 1905-06 season. They wouldn't meet again, in a competitive match for 14 years.
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| The first 31 encounters |
Forest had had the better of the contests so far, having won 15 out of the 31 matches, losing 11.
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| Forest on top so far |
Forest bounced straight back to the First division after their relegation, as Stoke were themselves relegated. The season after, both Forest and Stoke finished mid table in their respective divisions but for Stoke, disaster struck as they had hit financial trouble and the club became liquidated and resigned from the league at the end of the season.
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| Stoke go bust |
Stoke and bottom Club Lincoln City left the league and were replaced by Tottenham Hotspur and Bradford Park Avenue.
So, for the next seven seasons, up until the start of the First World War, there was no Stoke Ramblers, Stoke F.C., or Stoke City in the league. The club did reform, using the assets of the old club, in 1909 and played in the Birmingham & District and then the Southern League. I'm not sure who makes the rules about this sort of thing but the fact that the club went bust and had to reform, and only regained their league place after a twelve year absence can only detract from their claim to be the 2nd oldest club in the league. Stoke have been a member of the league for 113 seasons, Forest, despite joining four years later, have been in the league for 117 seasons.
Inter-War Period
After First World War the league resumed with both Forest and Stoke in the second division and so they recommenced their rivalry. It was only at this stage that Stoke, as a league club, started playing in their famous red and white stripes and white shorts.
Shall I? Shan't I? Ok, go on then!! ... I can't resist... Forest, of course, the original reds, have always played in their current colours (apart from their very first season, in 1865 (not 1868).
The spoils were evenly shared for the first three seasons, with both teams winning two and loosing two, with two draws.
In the third of those season, in 1921-22, Forest and Stoke both won promotion back to the top flight.
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| Going Up with the Potters |
Both teams struggled against relegation but Forest managed to escape while Stoke returned back to the second division. The two games against each other were tight affairs, both 1-0 away wins.
Stoke bought the ground around this time and invested in the Butler street stand taking the capacity to around 50,000. The Victoria Ground was looking like this in those days...
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| Victoria Ground in the 1920s |
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| Forest stay Up, Stoke go back down |
Stoke finally became Stoke City in 1925 to celebrate when Stoke-on-Trent was granted City status, just as Forest finally lost their struggle to stay in the first division and found themselves relegated back in Division Two with The Potters. City had marginally the better of the two games between the clubs, winning 2-1 at the City Ground and drawing 1-1 at the Victoria Ground. But it was scant consolation as they found themselves relegated again, this time to the Third Division North.
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| Stoke City relegated to the Third Division North |
But Stoke bounced straight back to resume their rivalry with Forest the very next season.
For the next six seasons, Stoke City and Forest battled away in the second division, with Stoke usually finishing above the Reds, but not by much. The spoils of the games were shared pretty evenly matched too with both clubs winning 5 out of the twelve games played.
However it was during this period that The Potters claimed their best win at the City ground - a 5-1 drubbing early in the 1928-29 season - and their best home win too - a 6-0 slaughter at The Victoria Ground ion 15th March 1930.
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| Arise Stan!! |
It would be another 21 years before Forest and Stoke city played at the same level again. With Matthews, Stoke were transformed into a top side. It's amazing to think how the club held on to him. He was born in Hanley, just half an hours' walk from the ground although he would probably have preferred to walk in the other direction to Vale Park as he was a Port Vale fan as a boy. These days he'd have been signed for one of the oligarchs before he reached 18, I'm sure.
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| Matches 32 - 53 |
Stoke City had marginally the better of this inter-war period...
... but Forest were still ahead overall...
Stoke City settled well back in the First Division and were soon challenging at the top of the table. In 1935-36 they had their best season to date when they finished fourth.
That season City finished 37 places above Forest, their best relative league position compared to the Reds as Forest finished 19th in the second division.
... but Forest were still ahead overall...
Stoke City settled well back in the First Division and were soon challenging at the top of the table. In 1935-36 they had their best season to date when they finished fourth.
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| Stoke City's best league position |
That season City finished 37 places above Forest, their best relative league position compared to the Reds as Forest finished 19th in the second division.
This represented Stoke City's best three year period at the time. From 1934-37 they were the 5th best team in England. On March 29th 1937 Stoke City had their best ever attendance. 51,380 turned up at the Victoria Ground to watch Stoke City play Arsenal.
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| Stoke were the 5th Best Team in England from 1934-37 |
Stanley Matthews had been already playing for Stoke City for seven years when war again ravaged Europe. So Stan found himself with the Royal Air Force, based just outside Blackpool. He played a lot of games in the wartime period, for Stoke and as guest for Blackpool as well as Airdrie and Morton. The war cut six years off his statistics.
In 1946, as peacetime returned, Stanley Matthews resumed his career with Stoke City and the club repeated their 4th place best record. This time, however, Stoke had a real chance of the title and only finished just two points behind Liverpool, agonisingly losing to Sheffield United on the final day of the season. A win would have made them champions.
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| Stoke's best ever season - almost Champions |
If you bolt onto this season the five season seasons before the war, Stoke had the 3rd best record in England which makes you wonder what might have been if Germany hadn't invaded Poland.
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| Stoke City had the 3rd best record in England from 1935-47 |
After making 259 league appearances for Stoke City, Stanley Matthews joined Blackpool where he would play for the next 14 years, making a further 379 appearances.
Without Matthews, Stoke City began to fade away as a force in English football and apart from a couple of seasons in mid-table, they were soon battling against relegation and finally succumbed to it in 1953.
So, back in the Second division in the 1953-54 season, they resumed they rivalry with Nottingham Forest, who were by then revitalised under Billy Walker after a couple of years in the third Division South and looking for promotion back to the top flight themselves.
For four seasons they battled it out with Forest finishing above Stoke on three out of four occasions. However, in the head-to-head matches, Stoke had the better record, winning four against Forest's two.
This period almost brought Stoke level with Forest in their overall record against each other.
The sequence was ended when Forest did return to the top flight under Billy Walker, leaving Stoke behind in the Second Division.
By the start of the 60s, Stoke City were a pale shadow of the team that had threatened to become one of England's best. The crowds at the Victoria Ground had regularly dropped to below 10,000. A change in fortune was instigated by a new manager called Tony Waddington who was appointed manager in June.
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| Tony Waddington changed Stoke's fortunes |
One of the first, bold, moves he did was to re-sign Stanley Matthews from Blackpool. This was in 1961, so Matthews was a sprightly 46 years old! Amazingly, somehow it worked and the crowds trebled and Stoke won the Second Division title in 1962-63 with (perhaps unsurprisingly) the oldest squad in the league.
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| Stoke (with 46 year old Matthews) win the Second Division |
Matthews won the Football Writers Award that season, 15 years after winning the first one. He collected it at the age of 48! Stan would go on to make a further 59 appearances for the Potters, scoring three times.
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| Stanley's incredible return to the Victoria Ground at the age of 46 |
This set up the next period where Forest and Stoke battled it out in the same league again. For the next nine seasons both clubs played against each other in the top flight.
In September 1963 Tony Waddington signed one of Forest's regulars, Calvin Palmer, a tough-tackling midfield player. Palmer had made over 100 appearances for Forest and would now make almost 200 for Stoke.
In 1965 Stanley Matthews finally retired and a friendly match was organised in his honour...
In September 1963 Tony Waddington signed one of Forest's regulars, Calvin Palmer, a tough-tackling midfield player. Palmer had made over 100 appearances for Forest and would now make almost 200 for Stoke.
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| Skeggy-born Calvin Palmer as a Forest player |
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| ...then as a Potter |
In 1965 Stanley Matthews finally retired and a friendly match was organised in his honour...
Forest had the edge over Stoke, finishing above them on five of the nine seasons. This, of course, included Johnny Carey's great side of 1966-67 where Forest finished second and reached the F.A. Cup Semi Finals. But after that, it would be Tony Waddington who would win some significant silverware for the only time in Stoke's history and bring an amazing glamour to the club never seen since.
His first major coup was to sign Gordon Banks from Leicester City in 1967 for just over £50,000.
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| Best Goalkeeper in the World - now played for Stoke. |
Forest dominated Stoke City in the head-to-heads, winning seven and losing only three of the 18 games played. The sequence remarkably included a string of five consecutive draws between the sides.
So, for the period whilst Forest were in the same division they were definitely top dogs.
Which put them further ahead overall...
This sequence ended when Forest were relegated back to the Second division at the end of the 1971-72 season, ironically, just a few months after Stoke City won their only major domestic trophy, beating Chelsea in the League cup Final at Wembley, a win that would signal a new glamorous era for the Potters.
Match details...
Here are the highlights from Wembley...
This cup winning side was probably Stoke's most famous post-war team...
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| How many can you name? |
Waddington made three big signings in 1974, Alan Hudson from Chelsea, Geoff Salmons from Sheffield United and, from Leicester City Stoke paid £325,000 for Peter Shilton - a World Record for a goalkeeper at the time and Stoke City finished 5th in the table two seasons running.
Of course, as we all know, Peter Shilton was one of Cloughie's first major signings for Forest and would go on to make 202 appearances for The Reds, almost twice as many as for Stoke, in his amazing 1,005 league appearances.
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| Peter Shilton's incredible appearance record |
It all seemed to be paying off in the very closely run 1974-75 season. At the end of February, Stoke City were top of the First Division and looked as good as anyone. But their form fell away and they ended up in 5th place, four points behind title winners Derby County.
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| Stoke City - Top of the League |
Stoke's League Cup success as well as their high league finishes meant that the club played European football a few times in the 1970s.
In 1972-73 they beat 1FC Kaiserslautern of the Bundesliga in the home first leg 3-1, but lost away 0-4 to crash out of the tournament at the first hurdle.
And in 1974-75 Stoke City were handed an even tougher 1st Round draw against Ajax Amsterdam. The first leg in England was drawn 1-1 and so was the away leg, but by 0-0 so the Dutch side proceeded on away goals.
In 1972-73 they beat 1FC Kaiserslautern of the Bundesliga in the home first leg 3-1, but lost away 0-4 to crash out of the tournament at the first hurdle.
And in 1974-75 Stoke City were handed an even tougher 1st Round draw against Ajax Amsterdam. The first leg in England was drawn 1-1 and so was the away leg, but by 0-0 so the Dutch side proceeded on away goals.
Murphy's Law struck though when a storm hit the Victoria Ground in 1976 and damaged one of the roofs. The repair bill of £250,000 apparently put the club in serious financial trouble (what? no insurance?) and they had to sell their best players to make ends meet. Inevitably this started the slide and, after 17 years in the job Tony Waddington finally resigned after Stoke time at the top was over.
Stoke had enjoyed a run of 14 successive seasons in the top flight, equaling their previous best run spanning the war years. But they were relegated at the end of the 1976-77 season along with Tottenham Hotspur and Sunderland. Forest would miss them this time as Clough and Taylor had just scraped Forest through to promotion.
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| Stoke City relegated, as Forest get promoted |
So, to bring us up to date, as Forest were taking England and then Europe by storm, Stoke City first consolidated and then won promotion back to the top flight again.
First Division Early Season Form in August 1979
I was at my peak of fanaticism at this time of my life. By the time I went to Ipswich for my birthday match - the opening game of the season, I'd already been to six games. Three were friendlies at Low Moor Road to watch Sutton Town (who no longer exist I am told) against local league opposition in the form of Chesterfield, Sheffield Wednesday and Mansfield Town. I'd seen two matches at Field Mill, Mansfield - a League cup first round tie against York City and an Anglo-Scottish Cup tie against Notts County - as well as a League cup tie at Oakwell, where Barnsley played Lincoln City.
To catch the mood of the day, here's the song that was No. 1 in the UK for most of the month: The Boomtown Rats "I Don't Like Mondays"...
Here's the "Snipes" (Sutton Town) programme for the first of those friendlies...
These are the matches I had been to by the end of August 1979...
So when the 1979-80 season finally started I was well up for it. I remember nothing about the trip to Portman Road but I must have been pleased to see Forest start with a 1-0 win with a Tony Woodcock goal. It would have been most pleasing that of the four other teams who won their opening match, one of which was NOT Liverpool.
It would appear (thanks, Boro!) that ground improvements at Molineux - the opening of a new stand (The John Ireland stand) was not ready in time for their opening match v Liverpool and so the game was called off. But strangely, Wolves' fixture the next Saturday was also at home - to Ipswich, and it was played. By strange coincidence, Liverpool played a friendly against a side representing the League of Ireland at Dalymount Park, home of Bohemians FC, on that day. Liverpool won 2-0.
To catch the mood of the day, here's the song that was No. 1 in the UK for most of the month: The Boomtown Rats "I Don't Like Mondays"...
Here's the "Snipes" (Sutton Town) programme for the first of those friendlies...
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| My fanatical start to the 1979-80 Season |
It would appear (thanks, Boro!) that ground improvements at Molineux - the opening of a new stand (The John Ireland stand) was not ready in time for their opening match v Liverpool and so the game was called off. But strangely, Wolves' fixture the next Saturday was also at home - to Ipswich, and it was played. By strange coincidence, Liverpool played a friendly against a side representing the League of Ireland at Dalymount Park, home of Bohemians FC, on that day. Liverpool won 2-0.
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| John Ireland stand - apparently not ready for Liverpool on 18th August - but was ready for Ipswich the week after... huh? |
Ipswich Town
1 Laurie Sivell, 2 David Mills, 3 Terry Butcher, 4 Frans Thijssen, 5 Alan Hunter, 6 Russell Osman, 7 John Wark, 8 Arnold Muhren, 9 Paul Mariner, 10 Eric Gates, 11 Clive Woods.
Substitutions: Alan Brazil (12) came on for Alan Hunter(5).
Nottingham Forest
1 Peter Shilton, 2 Viv Anderson, 3 Frank Gray, 4 John McGovern, 5 Larry Lloyd, 5 David Needham, 7 Martin O'Neill, 8 Asa Hartford, 9 Garry Birtles, 10 Tony Woodcock, 11 John Robertson.
Goals : Tony Woodcock 1.
One name missing from that team sheet that you may have noticed was Trevor Francis. Where the Dickens' was the million pound man? After scoring the only goal in the European Cup Final last May I expect many fans were expecting to see him in the first game of the season.
The fact is, he was still playing for Detroit Express and the next day, lined up against Tampa Bay Rowdies in front of 27,210 fans at the Tampa Stadium. Tampa Bay won 3-1. Detroit had already lost the first leg, at the Pontiac Silverdrome, 3-0 so it was a bit of a non-event. Tampa went on to reach the final that year, losing to Vancouver Whitecaps 2-1.
Francis did return to England after this game but wouldn't make an appearance for the Reds until October.
On the Monday night, I apparently made the trip to Vale Park to watch Port Vale play Hereford United. Completely mad!
This was my 57th Ground visited...
So to the Wednesday night game against Stoke City and a very strange-looking City Ground it was at that time. The East Stand had been ripped down immediately after the last home game of the season and work had commenced on Forest's first major ground improvement for decades.
Starring for Stoke City that night was a 21 year old, called Garth Crooks, who had already scored two goals on the opening day of the season, and ex-Forest stalwart, Paul Richardson. Crooks would go on to join Spurs at the end of this season. Paul was getting towards the end of his career, at 30 years old. Having made 223 league appearances for his first club, Forest, making his debut at 20, he was now more than three quarters of the way through his total of 437 league appearances made for seven clubs.
The game ended in another win for Forest, with a goal from good old Martin O'Neill.
Nottingham Forest
1 Peter Shilton, 2 Viv Anderson, 3 Frank Gray, 4 John McGovern, 5 Larry Lloyd, 5 David Needham, 7 Martin O'Neill, 8 Asa Hartford, 9 Garry Birtles, 10 Tony Woodcock, 11 John Robertson.
Goals: Martin O'Neill 1.
Substitutions: Ian Bowyer (12) came on for Asa Hartford(8).
Stoke City
1 Peter Fox, 2 Ray Evans, 3 Geoff Scott, 4 Sammy Irvine, 5 Dennis Smith, 6 Mike Doyle, 7 Viv Busby, 8 Adrian Heath, 9 Brendon O'Callaghan, 10 Garth Crooks, 11 Paul Richardson.
Forest had two more games in August that I'll briefly cover.
The first was another home game against Coventry City.
Forest won that one too - 4-1 with goals from John McGovern (2), Tony Woodcock and John Robertson. I went to that one too.
This left only two teams with 100% records: Forest and Norwich City.
Nottingham Forest
1 Peter Shilton, 2 Viv Anderson, 3 Frank Gray, 4 John McGovern, 5 Larry Lloyd, 6 Kenny Burns, 7 Martin O'Neill, 8 Asa Hartford, 9 Garry Birtles, 10 Tony Woodcock, 11 John Robertson, 12 Ian Bowyer.
Goals: John McGovern 2, Tony Woodcock 1, John Robertson 1.
Coventry City
1 Steve Murcott, 2 Brian Roberts, 3 Bobby McDonald, 4 Andy Blair, 5 Jim Holton, 6 Gary Gillespie, 7 Tommy Hutchison, 8 Tom English, 8 Barry Powell, 9 Mick Ferguson, 10 Barry Powell, 10 Gary Bannister, 11 Steve Hunt.
Goals : Tom English 1.
Substitutions: Mark Hateley(12) came on for Tom English (8).
Other results that day...
So, at the end of August 1979, Forest had made a perfect start to the league season.
This even put them back on top of the composite (1977-1980) league table, something I wasn't expecting.
This was actually Forest's seventh successive win in a competitive game, the best run they'd ever had under Cloughie. It was also, incredibly, John Robertson's 150th consecutive first team start.
John Robertson was still only 63% of the way through his amazing 239 run of consecutive first team appearances for Forest at the peak of their history. I will never tire of reminding people how undervalued Robbo was at the time and how grateful Forest fans (especially those impatient X-Box experts who are prone to labeling Forest legends as 'dinosaurs') should be to him and his team mates.
Despite the good win, and a 100% record, Clough & Taylor were not happy. In particular they weren't happy with their new midfield signing, Asa Hartford. Incredibly, after just three games, and 63 days at the club, he was sold to Everton for £400,000. Peter Taylor explained "Hartford is one hell of a player and will fit in very well for someone. But Forest are too big to change their play pattern for one player."
The following Tuesday I went to Hillsborough to watch Sheffield Wednesday play Manchester City in the League Cup 2nd Round.
1 Laurie Sivell, 2 David Mills, 3 Terry Butcher, 4 Frans Thijssen, 5 Alan Hunter, 6 Russell Osman, 7 John Wark, 8 Arnold Muhren, 9 Paul Mariner, 10 Eric Gates, 11 Clive Woods.
Substitutions: Alan Brazil (12) came on for Alan Hunter(5).
Nottingham Forest
1 Peter Shilton, 2 Viv Anderson, 3 Frank Gray, 4 John McGovern, 5 Larry Lloyd, 5 David Needham, 7 Martin O'Neill, 8 Asa Hartford, 9 Garry Birtles, 10 Tony Woodcock, 11 John Robertson.
Goals : Tony Woodcock 1.
One name missing from that team sheet that you may have noticed was Trevor Francis. Where the Dickens' was the million pound man? After scoring the only goal in the European Cup Final last May I expect many fans were expecting to see him in the first game of the season.
The fact is, he was still playing for Detroit Express and the next day, lined up against Tampa Bay Rowdies in front of 27,210 fans at the Tampa Stadium. Tampa Bay won 3-1. Detroit had already lost the first leg, at the Pontiac Silverdrome, 3-0 so it was a bit of a non-event. Tampa went on to reach the final that year, losing to Vancouver Whitecaps 2-1.
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| Tampa Stadium |
Francis did return to England after this game but wouldn't make an appearance for the Reds until October.
This was my 57th Ground visited...
So to the Wednesday night game against Stoke City and a very strange-looking City Ground it was at that time. The East Stand had been ripped down immediately after the last home game of the season and work had commenced on Forest's first major ground improvement for decades.
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| Executive Stand Starts to take shape |
Starring for Stoke City that night was a 21 year old, called Garth Crooks, who had already scored two goals on the opening day of the season, and ex-Forest stalwart, Paul Richardson. Crooks would go on to join Spurs at the end of this season. Paul was getting towards the end of his career, at 30 years old. Having made 223 league appearances for his first club, Forest, making his debut at 20, he was now more than three quarters of the way through his total of 437 league appearances made for seven clubs.
The game ended in another win for Forest, with a goal from good old Martin O'Neill.
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| Martin O'Neill's goal v Stoke City. Notice the state of the East Stand |
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| The headline above was "Cyrill is missed..." |
Nottingham Forest
1 Peter Shilton, 2 Viv Anderson, 3 Frank Gray, 4 John McGovern, 5 Larry Lloyd, 5 David Needham, 7 Martin O'Neill, 8 Asa Hartford, 9 Garry Birtles, 10 Tony Woodcock, 11 John Robertson.
Goals: Martin O'Neill 1.
Substitutions: Ian Bowyer (12) came on for Asa Hartford(8).
Stoke City
1 Peter Fox, 2 Ray Evans, 3 Geoff Scott, 4 Sammy Irvine, 5 Dennis Smith, 6 Mike Doyle, 7 Viv Busby, 8 Adrian Heath, 9 Brendon O'Callaghan, 10 Garth Crooks, 11 Paul Richardson.
Forest had two more games in August that I'll briefly cover.
The first was another home game against Coventry City.
Forest won that one too - 4-1 with goals from John McGovern (2), Tony Woodcock and John Robertson. I went to that one too.
This left only two teams with 100% records: Forest and Norwich City.
1 Peter Shilton, 2 Viv Anderson, 3 Frank Gray, 4 John McGovern, 5 Larry Lloyd, 6 Kenny Burns, 7 Martin O'Neill, 8 Asa Hartford, 9 Garry Birtles, 10 Tony Woodcock, 11 John Robertson, 12 Ian Bowyer.
Goals: John McGovern 2, Tony Woodcock 1, John Robertson 1.
Coventry City
1 Steve Murcott, 2 Brian Roberts, 3 Bobby McDonald, 4 Andy Blair, 5 Jim Holton, 6 Gary Gillespie, 7 Tommy Hutchison, 8 Tom English, 8 Barry Powell, 9 Mick Ferguson, 10 Barry Powell, 10 Gary Bannister, 11 Steve Hunt.
Goals : Tom English 1.
Substitutions: Mark Hateley(12) came on for Tom English (8).
Other results that day...
So, at the end of August 1979, Forest had made a perfect start to the league season.
This even put them back on top of the composite (1977-1980) league table, something I wasn't expecting.
This was actually Forest's seventh successive win in a competitive game, the best run they'd ever had under Cloughie. It was also, incredibly, John Robertson's 150th consecutive first team start.
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| 7th Win on the trot & Robbo's 150th consecutive game |
John Robertson was still only 63% of the way through his amazing 239 run of consecutive first team appearances for Forest at the peak of their history. I will never tire of reminding people how undervalued Robbo was at the time and how grateful Forest fans (especially those impatient X-Box experts who are prone to labeling Forest legends as 'dinosaurs') should be to him and his team mates.
Despite the good win, and a 100% record, Clough & Taylor were not happy. In particular they weren't happy with their new midfield signing, Asa Hartford. Incredibly, after just three games, and 63 days at the club, he was sold to Everton for £400,000. Peter Taylor explained "Hartford is one hell of a player and will fit in very well for someone. But Forest are too big to change their play pattern for one player."
The following Tuesday I went to Hillsborough to watch Sheffield Wednesday play Manchester City in the League Cup 2nd Round.
Chasing a 3rd League Cup Win
Then, on the Wednesday, I went to Ewood Park to watch Forest start their defence of the League Cup at Blackburn Rovers. This was my 12th game of the season and we were still in August!
Larry Lloyd scored for Forest in a 1-1 draw. This was the League cup Second Round - First Leg - remember. How many were there, would you reckon? These days, you'd be lucky to get 5,000. On that night there were 20,458.
Other 2nd Round ties - first leg - before the end of August...
So, what happened next?
Larry Lloyd scored for Forest in a 1-1 draw. This was the League cup Second Round - First Leg - remember. How many were there, would you reckon? These days, you'd be lucky to get 5,000. On that night there were 20,458.
Other 2nd Round ties - first leg - before the end of August...
So, what happened next?
Stoke City v Forest in the Last 40 Years
In the years after the golden three - up to the end of Forest's period in the top flight , which I arbitrarily signal as 1999 - Forest completely dominated Stoke in terms of league position, finishing above them every single season.
In 1990-91 Forest finished 50 league places above City, the highest gap between the two clubs. Forest ended up 8th in the top tier and The Potters in their lowest ever position of 14th in the 3rd tier.
Perhaps not surprisingly, Forest had the best of the games between the two clubs too, during this period, winning 9 out of the 18 games between the clubs, including an F.A. Cup 3rd Round tie won after a replay in 1996. Forest went on to reach the quarter finals but lost 0-1 at home to Aston Villa in front of just over 21,000 fans. That 3rd Round tie was the last (and 47th) game Forest played at the Victoria Ground before it was replaced with their new ground, then called The Britannia Stadium.
This period also included Forest's best home win (to date) against Stoke (5-0 on 30th August 1980) and their best away win too, 4-1 (on 23rd March 1985.)
This block of games also included my two visits to The Victoria Ground. The first was later in the year, a 1-1 draw, and the second trip was in September 1981 when I witnessed a 2-1 win by Forest.
The Victoria Ground looked like this...
That trip also happened to be the first big drive away in my first ever car, a cute little Renault 5.
Here are the highlights of the 1-1 draw at the City Ground in October 1984.
On 21st February 1998 Forest played their first game at the new Stoke City Ground, the Britannia Stadium (now called the bet365 stadium).
I have yet to visit the new ground and Forest have yet to win there.
Here are the results between Forest and Stoke City from 1979-1999... Notice how, here too, Forest dominated over Stoke City and often had won the last 3 or 4 out of the last 5 against them.
So, as they approached 100 games between the two sides, Forest had moved into a strong lead...
In the last twenty years - that's from 1999 to 2019, of course, things haven't been so good for Forest as they plummeted to the third tier for those three years and Stoke dominated most of that period.
In head-to-head games, however, Forest still had the best record, even in this period, winning 3 and drawing 4 of the nine games between the clubs.
Forest managed to beat Stoke City 6-0, signalling their best ever win against The Potters in 2003.
This spell included their only meeting in the League (or Carabao Cup) Cup last season...
So, Forest's record against Stoke City can only be described in one word... "better".
So Stoke City's overall record is pretty close to, but not as good as, Forest's. Forest have finished above Stoke 59 times in the 110 seasons they've both played in the league at the same time, meaning that Stoke, of course, have finished above Forest 51 times.
Stoke City have never won the league, but have finished 4th twice (in 1935-36 and again in 1946-47). They have ended up in the top 10 18 times, compared to Forest's 30. Whereas Forest have won the F.A. Cup twice, Stoke have never done so. The Potters got to the final in 2011 losing to Manchester City and the semi-finals three times. In fact Stoke City's only major domestic honour is winning the League Cup in 1971-72. Forest won the trophy four times.
So, not only are Forest the older club, going by the record of the two clubs, they are undoubtedly the better one too.
In 1990-91 Forest finished 50 league places above City, the highest gap between the two clubs. Forest ended up 8th in the top tier and The Potters in their lowest ever position of 14th in the 3rd tier.
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| Stoke City's Nadir |
Perhaps not surprisingly, Forest had the best of the games between the two clubs too, during this period, winning 9 out of the 18 games between the clubs, including an F.A. Cup 3rd Round tie won after a replay in 1996. Forest went on to reach the quarter finals but lost 0-1 at home to Aston Villa in front of just over 21,000 fans. That 3rd Round tie was the last (and 47th) game Forest played at the Victoria Ground before it was replaced with their new ground, then called The Britannia Stadium.
This period also included Forest's best home win (to date) against Stoke (5-0 on 30th August 1980) and their best away win too, 4-1 (on 23rd March 1985.)
This block of games also included my two visits to The Victoria Ground. The first was later in the year, a 1-1 draw, and the second trip was in September 1981 when I witnessed a 2-1 win by Forest.
The Victoria Ground looked like this...
That trip also happened to be the first big drive away in my first ever car, a cute little Renault 5.
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| After watching Forest beat Stoke, I drove up to Alton Towers in my new cheeky little Renault 5 |
Here are the highlights of the 1-1 draw at the City Ground in October 1984.
On 21st February 1998 Forest played their first game at the new Stoke City Ground, the Britannia Stadium (now called the bet365 stadium).
I have yet to visit the new ground and Forest have yet to win there.
Here are the results between Forest and Stoke City from 1979-1999... Notice how, here too, Forest dominated over Stoke City and often had won the last 3 or 4 out of the last 5 against them.
So, as they approached 100 games between the two sides, Forest had moved into a strong lead...
In the last twenty years - that's from 1999 to 2019, of course, things haven't been so good for Forest as they plummeted to the third tier for those three years and Stoke dominated most of that period.
In head-to-head games, however, Forest still had the best record, even in this period, winning 3 and drawing 4 of the nine games between the clubs.
Forest managed to beat Stoke City 6-0, signalling their best ever win against The Potters in 2003.
This spell included their only meeting in the League (or Carabao Cup) Cup last season...
So, Forest's record against Stoke City can only be described in one word... "better".
So Stoke City's overall record is pretty close to, but not as good as, Forest's. Forest have finished above Stoke 59 times in the 110 seasons they've both played in the league at the same time, meaning that Stoke, of course, have finished above Forest 51 times.
Stoke City have never won the league, but have finished 4th twice (in 1935-36 and again in 1946-47). They have ended up in the top 10 18 times, compared to Forest's 30. Whereas Forest have won the F.A. Cup twice, Stoke have never done so. The Potters got to the final in 2011 losing to Manchester City and the semi-finals three times. In fact Stoke City's only major domestic honour is winning the League Cup in 1971-72. Forest won the trophy four times.
So, not only are Forest the older club, going by the record of the two clubs, they are undoubtedly the better one too.
Read more of Stoke City's history here.
From Duncan McKenzie to Martin O'Neill
Now, as I alluded to at the beginning, I'm not even sure if I am a Forest fan any more at the moment. The sacking of Martin O'Neill after five months in charge really made me wonder why I support this club and what I have in common with so many people who call themselves Forest fans but that really don't seem to care about Martin's sacking.
Social Media can be a toxic place and here's just a small sample of some of the nastiness about Martin O'Neill I encountered in those brief 5 months...
It's a well known phenomenon of social media that you have to be careful not to take too seriously what you read on Twitter and Facebook from anonymous people who are quick to up the ante and get very nasty very quickly and it seems that I have fallen for this to some extent at least. When Martin was appointed back at the end of January I sensed a significant number of Forest "supporters" were not happy with the appointment so I saw it as my duty to try to educate them about his record, of which few seem to be fully aware of.
Social Media can be a toxic place and here's just a small sample of some of the nastiness about Martin O'Neill I encountered in those brief 5 months...
My opening gambit was always that my backing of O'Neill was not just based on emotion - even though, of course, it was a part of it. He's a Forest legend that I had the privilege of watching a lot. I reckon I must have watched over 80% of his appearances for the club. I also was lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time to witness his first 5 1/2 years of (very successful) management at Wycombe Wanderers.
But it's not just emotion. I maintain, even now, that Martin O'Neill actually has the best record of any current (although after his sacking, clearly that word can't be used any more) UK-based manager. I urge any doubters to just look at the stats: Apart from a six month stint at Norwich where promises made to him about funds were not kept, and Sunderland, where he was sacked even though they were in the same position as when he joined, he has improved every side he's managed. He took Wycombe Wanderers from GM Vauxhall Conference to the third tier in successive seasons, with three Wembley wins on the way.
At Leicester, he got them promotion to the top tier in his first season and also got them to Wembley three times.
So, in successive seasons O'Neill managed teams from GMVC, Div 4, Div 3, Div 2, Div 1 and then Europe. Nobody has ever done that before or since. It's unlikely to ever be repeated. At Celtic he reversed a long era of Rangers dominance and won 7 trophies in 5 years with an 80.7% return on points, better than anyone before him bar Jock Stein.
Which current manager, born in the UK, can boast a record like this? I put it to you the answer is "none"....
Of course the retort from many ignorant and condescending Forest fans on this was to claim that anyone could manage Celtic. Scotland was a "pub league" etc. Social media threads would often end up with me, and a couple of Celtic fans, arguing with Forest fans about the merits of O'Neill. Great supporters, these - they would rather slag off a Forest legend than back him.
I would counter that even if you took away his time at Celtic (and Grantham, presumably that was a "pub league" too) he still had a better record than almost all the managers in Forest's history. Really, only Cloughie is the exception.
I can't remember how many times I had to remind people about his record at Aston Villa where the club made the top six of the Premier League three years running. They are the last club outside of the current Greediership oligarch to do so. How many Villa fans would want that back today? Even his so-called "failure" at Sunderland wasn't really. He left them in the same position they were in when he started.
Often the comeback was something along the lines of "Well he's joined us too late. He might have had a good record ten years ago but he hasn't been successful anywhere since 2005." I always responded to that by pointing out that he took Ireland up 27 places in the FIFA ranking.
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| The last time a team outside the current oligarchy finished in the top 6 for more than a one season consecutively. |
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| They did for 3 seasons, under O'Neill |
Often the comeback was something along the lines of "Well he's joined us too late. He might have had a good record ten years ago but he hasn't been successful anywhere since 2005." I always responded to that by pointing out that he took Ireland up 27 places in the FIFA ranking.
This, was with one of the weakest squads Ireland's had for years, including Darryl Murphy - a hard-working player many Forest fans loathed. Martin took them to the Euro 2016 Round of 16 beating the supposed football geniuses of Joachim Low's (and World Champions) Germany...
...and Antonio Conte's Italy on the way - so much for being tactically out of his depth.
I reminded them that as late as the World Cup 2018 qualifying group, Ireland only lost one out of ten and made the play offs.
The whole Irish anti-O'Neill propaganda, which disloyal Forest fans gripped onto like nuggets of gold, seems to have arisen from an ungrateful Irish press after the one bad defeat against Denmark in the World Cup play offs. It seems one or two mardy Irish players were whingeing about being left out of the 5-1 defeat to Denmark - and that started the "bad vibe" thing going. Martin had to go for goals when a pretty good Denmark side went into the lead, let's be honest. That whole affair just seems totally unfair and incredibly ungrateful to me - most sickening to me is that a big slice of Forest fans were happy to repeat that disgusting gossip rather than stick up for one of the men who brought miracles to Trentside.
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| Martin O'Neill stepped down as Ireland manager in November 2018 |
How many times did I have to remind these "fans" that when Martin took over at Forest, they were in free-fall and actually had the joint worst current (last 3 home/away) form in the division? The defence was in tatters but he sorted that out very quickly.
Again and again I'd be told how he made tactical errors, he preferred "donkeys" like Darryl Murphy to players with skill. He played players out of position (he played Colback once as a left back) and - crime of all crimes - he kept the precious Joao Carvalho on the bench. Actually Carvalho did figure in 63% of Martin's teams but that was not enough. Apparently Joao should start every game, no question, and never to be used as a sub, I was assured. These 15-25 year olds have played X-Box and Football Manager long enough to know how good a talent he is and if Martin O'Neill can't see that, he must be an idiot. These youngsters clearly know better than a manager with a brilliant record spanning over 32 years. I tried to remind them that Carvalho did cost 13 million pounds and for that amount, you know, you kind of expect more than some lightweight "Fancy Dan" that flatters to deceive and then disappears when the going gets tough (like at home to Aston Villa, when O'Neill did play him from the start.)
Of course there were some bad performances in Martin's reign. Ipswich away, Rotherham away, Stoke away, Sheffield Wednesday second half, to name but some were all pretty grim, I must admit. But then, so were many under Aitor Karanka too (Millwall home and away, Brentford away, QPR home, Burton Albion away for example). So were many under Clough, in the early days. And let's not forget the good performances under O'Neill - home to Wigan, Brentford, Derby and Hull and away at West Brom and Preston. The 3-0 home win v Middlesbrough was one of the best performances in years. At the end of the day, his 19 games record will remain one of the better ones out of Forest's ever growing list of head coaches or whatever they are called these days.
He sorted out a defensive crisis very quickly and introduced Ryan Yates. Surely every die-hard Forest fan would rather have "one of their own" battling in the squad than yet another overrated Benfica reject... apparently not. The dream of some Latino manager with a sexy accent picking the sort of players Barcelona might have in their third team is strong with these people, it seems.
Let me end this rant with with a simple question: When was the last time a manager was sacked after winning three straight league games? I don't know the answer but there can't be many.
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| Even with so little support, Martin O'Neill's record at Forest will always be one of the better ones (15th out of 42 at the moment) |
He sorted out a defensive crisis very quickly and introduced Ryan Yates. Surely every die-hard Forest fan would rather have "one of their own" battling in the squad than yet another overrated Benfica reject... apparently not. The dream of some Latino manager with a sexy accent picking the sort of players Barcelona might have in their third team is strong with these people, it seems.
Let me end this rant with with a simple question: When was the last time a manager was sacked after winning three straight league games? I don't know the answer but there can't be many.
Anyway. Yes, I know. It's over now and there is no point crying over spilled milk. But I am still left feeling empty inside and bewildered by modern football. Whatever happened to loyalty, decency and patience? Who chooses the players to make up the squad these days? The manager or the agents? Forest's latest head coach, Sabri Lamouchi's, best qualification seems to be that he is a mate of the "superagent" Jorges Mendes who seems to be mates of the owner Evangelos Markinakis. Reading between the lines, it seems Roy Keane could see that they were going to have little influence deciding who would come into the club and so left a sinking ship for Martin to battle with on his own - with a group of players who, it would appear, did not take kindly to O'Neill's ideas on training - such as running around Wollaton Park (as I did for a couple of weeks as a "from now on" fitness wheeze) - how terrible for them! and "team building" exercises on the boats at Home Pierpoint - cringe!
Martin, it seems, lost the dressing room before the season even started and so Marinakis had his agents on the look out for a replacement before anyone saw it coming. As before, it was all done with admirable, smooth, efficiency and O'Neill was replaced without so much as a blink of an eye.
To be fair, Sabri Lamouchi's results this season have been pretty good and, of course, I do wish him well. But, I can't help thinking that Martin O'Neill would have done even better, if the players, and fans had all got behind him. He could have set up a legacy at Forest whereas I expect Lamouchi will be shown the door the moment the form slips.
I think there are parallels here between Stuart Pearce's time at the club (even though I think he is nowhere near as good a manger as Martin O'Neill - and he got a full year, Martin just 5 months). What I mean is that after a legend was dumped, probably with many of the squad complicit, the new guy got an extra boost in terms of a honeymoon period with the players, probably because they felt guilty and wanted to do extra well to make up for it to the fans. I don't think it's a coincidence that Dougie Freedman, the man that followed Pearce, also had an amazing start. In his first ten games, Forest won 7 drew 2 and lost only 1. Sabri looks like he could emulate that. But Forest fans should beware. As they may know, with Dougie, following his great start came a terrible run at the end of the 2014/15 season... Played 8 Won 0 Drawn 2 Lost 6. And by March of the following season he too was sacked. Lamouchi's record, unlike O'Neill's, is pretty average. Forest fans shouldn't get too excited yet.
Clearly there are also big differences between now and Freedman's time. Marinakis has put more of his billions into the club and seems to have brought in a few more decent players. (By the law of averages, a couple surely should be decent as I reckon he's brought in 43 new players, albeit many on loan, in the last three transfer windows alone!) Under Fawaz that wasn't going to happen. I can't help thinking how O'Neill would have liked to have had Joe Worrell back playing alongside a fit Michael Dawson, the choice of two new goalkeepers, a fit left back and a brand new decent right back to steady the defence.
I for one, will also miss his intelligent media interviews and cherish a short era when the Forest manager could actually speak English eloquently and not just spout a string of the usual dumb cliches.
Talking of the media, am I the only supporter frustrated that any critical investigative reporting by the otherwise admirable BBC Radio Nottingham team and the Evening Post has been missing in action here? It seems every man and his dog, just wants to brush the whole thing under the carpet and move on. Who cares how a Forest legend was treated? He was given a big pay out, wasn't he? The billionaire owner knows what he's doing. Who are we to question it? That's modern football for ya! etc etc.
It all smells of a kind of fascist post-truth world where big powerful men with farty names like Trump, BoJo and ScoMo, and billionaires with dodgy sources of money, rule and say and do what they like without anyone caring if there is a hint of truth or evidence behind their words or actions. In response the the masses just turn a blind eye to the worrying details and shrug their shoulders.
"Nowt to do wi' me, mate!"
Bah!
Anyway, as a tiny (and, yes, I know, pathetic, drama queen-like) protest, I threw away almost all of my old Forest shirts (not my Martin O'Neill 'No 7' replica of the Madrid Winning Shirt though!) and I have not renewed my iFollow subscription and although I admit to sneaking a peak at some of the goals in their games, I've not watched a single match so far this season.
Martin, it seems, lost the dressing room before the season even started and so Marinakis had his agents on the look out for a replacement before anyone saw it coming. As before, it was all done with admirable, smooth, efficiency and O'Neill was replaced without so much as a blink of an eye.
To be fair, Sabri Lamouchi's results this season have been pretty good and, of course, I do wish him well. But, I can't help thinking that Martin O'Neill would have done even better, if the players, and fans had all got behind him. He could have set up a legacy at Forest whereas I expect Lamouchi will be shown the door the moment the form slips.
I think there are parallels here between Stuart Pearce's time at the club (even though I think he is nowhere near as good a manger as Martin O'Neill - and he got a full year, Martin just 5 months). What I mean is that after a legend was dumped, probably with many of the squad complicit, the new guy got an extra boost in terms of a honeymoon period with the players, probably because they felt guilty and wanted to do extra well to make up for it to the fans. I don't think it's a coincidence that Dougie Freedman, the man that followed Pearce, also had an amazing start. In his first ten games, Forest won 7 drew 2 and lost only 1. Sabri looks like he could emulate that. But Forest fans should beware. As they may know, with Dougie, following his great start came a terrible run at the end of the 2014/15 season... Played 8 Won 0 Drawn 2 Lost 6. And by March of the following season he too was sacked. Lamouchi's record, unlike O'Neill's, is pretty average. Forest fans shouldn't get too excited yet.
Clearly there are also big differences between now and Freedman's time. Marinakis has put more of his billions into the club and seems to have brought in a few more decent players. (By the law of averages, a couple surely should be decent as I reckon he's brought in 43 new players, albeit many on loan, in the last three transfer windows alone!) Under Fawaz that wasn't going to happen. I can't help thinking how O'Neill would have liked to have had Joe Worrell back playing alongside a fit Michael Dawson, the choice of two new goalkeepers, a fit left back and a brand new decent right back to steady the defence.
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| Strong start for Sabri Lamouchi - but wouldn't Martin O'Neill have done just as well or better with the same support? |
I for one, will also miss his intelligent media interviews and cherish a short era when the Forest manager could actually speak English eloquently and not just spout a string of the usual dumb cliches.
Talking of the media, am I the only supporter frustrated that any critical investigative reporting by the otherwise admirable BBC Radio Nottingham team and the Evening Post has been missing in action here? It seems every man and his dog, just wants to brush the whole thing under the carpet and move on. Who cares how a Forest legend was treated? He was given a big pay out, wasn't he? The billionaire owner knows what he's doing. Who are we to question it? That's modern football for ya! etc etc.
It all smells of a kind of fascist post-truth world where big powerful men with farty names like Trump, BoJo and ScoMo, and billionaires with dodgy sources of money, rule and say and do what they like without anyone caring if there is a hint of truth or evidence behind their words or actions. In response the the masses just turn a blind eye to the worrying details and shrug their shoulders.
"Nowt to do wi' me, mate!"
Bah!
Anyway, as a tiny (and, yes, I know, pathetic, drama queen-like) protest, I threw away almost all of my old Forest shirts (not my Martin O'Neill 'No 7' replica of the Madrid Winning Shirt though!) and I have not renewed my iFollow subscription and although I admit to sneaking a peak at some of the goals in their games, I've not watched a single match so far this season.
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| Forest Shirts Dumped |
I guess I feel really let down by fellow Forest fans, as much as anything. Things just aren't the same as they were. I am feeling like a dinosaur, never mind Martin O'Neill!
My cunning plan is to stop following Forest for the same amount of time Martin was in the job - 164 days. If that happens, I'll resume on 9th December, but to be honest it doesn't feel likely at the moment. It feels that something positive has to happen for the "love" to start flowing again and I'm not sure what that could be - maybe Lamouchi taking them into the top three or four. I can be fickle too, given enough inducement! They say time heals, so maybe I might still be a Forest fan till I die after all.
Algis Kuliukas
Perth
August 2019
Algis Kuliukas
Perth
August 2019
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