40 years ago Forest won their third major domestic trophy in just over a year, after 19 years of winning nowt. In the middle of my most fanatical period as a Forest fan, it was a joyous return to Wembley to watch a classic game of two halves. Forest (apparently with good reason) looked like they were suffering from a hang over in the first half but came storming back in the second to give one of their best displays of the season. Garry Birtles had two clear goals disallowed so perhaps the score should have been 5-2.
In this blog post, I pay due respect to the fascinating history of a great old English club, Southampton which includes sub-plots to the founder of football in Brazil and, surely, England's No 1 all-rounder of all time. As usual this history includes a look at their quaint old ground, the Dell which was one of my first away games. As is the trend, Southampton recently moved from the Dell to a standard, homogeneous-looking modern stadium. But this move, at least has a positive ending as Southampton's new ground, St Mary's has taken them back to within 1 km of where it all began.
After watching Forest demolish the Saints at Wembley we will quickly trace events up until the end of the century, including Southampton's best ever season in 1983-84 when they were runners up to Liverpool with forest 3rd and a look at some of the heroes for both clubs
Finally, I'll catch right up to date and have a good old moan about the sequence of terrible refereeing decisions Forest have been getting since the O'Neill era began.
Previously... Crushed Grasshoppers
From St Mary's to McMenemy (and Brazil)
Now here's an odd little twist in the Southampton F.C. tale. The year before St Mary's YMA (as it was most often called in its early days) was formed, a nine year old boy called Charles Miller and his eleven year old brother, Henry, had been sent across the Atlantic by his parents, John and Carlota, from Sao Paulo, Brazil. John Miller, a Scottish engineer, had gone to live in Brazil to work on a massive railway project designed to take the ever growing Brazilian production of coffee beans from Sao Paolo to the port of Santos for export to the world. Carlota, a Brazilian with English ancestry, had also given birth to two girls back in Brazil.
Charles had been sent back to "blighty" to get an English education. For reasons unknown (at least to me, and from my limited research, the authors of books I've read too), the school they chose was a small one called Banister Court, in Southampton. Maybe it was just because it was close to the port where the boys got off their boat. It was one of many such schools in the Victorian era, that would promote team sports for boys as an important way of strengthening character and resolve, in the traditional "Christian" way. It was run by a young head master called Christopher Ellaby who had a football-orientated upbringing. It was a strict school with corporal punishment being dished out every day but if you were good at sport, you'd get on quite well, it seems.
By the time St Mary's football club was established, Charles' parents had returned from Brazil themselves and gone to live in Glasgow, near where his dad, John Miller, was born. Tragedy struck, however, and John died, suddenly. Charles continued his schooling in Southampton and what would become a rather football-focused education. He became captain of the school team for his last two years at Banister Court.
It was during those early years of St Mary's football club that Charles Miller was a regular. The club played a series of friendlies - sometimes against an almost mystical old club from London, called the Corinthians, including the famous C. B. Fry, who would later play for Southampton. The club are well known for their ridiculously gentlemanly conduct, such as their refusal to score from the penalty spot because the club deemed it too one-sided a contest.
The other big club in Southampton in those early years was Freemantle (yes, with two "E"s) and St Mary's and the "magpies" (Freemantle played in black & white) would often contest the Hampshire Cup final. Freemantle also originated from a church's Young Men's Association: Christ Church. Plenty "God Squads" involved in football in those days.
St Mary's first entered the F.A. Cup in 1891 and beat a club from just north of Bristol, called Warmley, 2-1 in the first qualifying round before slaughtering Reading 7-0 in the second round.
However, there was something a little dodgy about their team that day, as it included two soldiers, MacMillan and Flemming who, Reading claimed, had been paid. These were the days when The Cup had a strict policy of amateurism and so the F.A. disqualified the Saints, leaving Reading to pass through into the next round - only to get stuffed again by a team from near Nottingham, 6-2 by Clifton.
After a short period of pretending to be an amateur club, St Mary's got the sniff of money again after a massive crowd had watched them lose 0-8 to Stoke City in a friendly and they openly paraded a couple of big money signings before reaching the 1893-94 Hampshire Cup Final, again against Freemantle. By now, the club were becoming much more competitive in nature and talented young ex-schoolboys like Charles Miller were left out, deemed no match for professional players they could just buy.
There were rumors in the local press that Charles Miller would join Freemantle in the close season of 1894 that followed but, in the end, Miller decided instead to catch a boat for the long return journey back to Brazil.
The legend has it that when he arrived in Brazil he was greeted by his father (who was actually dead, remember - so don't place too much credence on the plausibility of this!)
This is apparently the account of Charles himself:
"On the quay at Santos, solemn, as if he were at a funeral, my father was waiting for me to disembark holding my degree certificate. But in fact I appeared in front of him with two footballs, one in each hand... The old man, surprised, inquired: - What is this, Charles? - My degree, I replied. - What? - Yes! Your son has graduated in football... The old man, in good spirits, laughed. I was off the hook."
This myth has become the story which describes the birth of football in Brazil and Charles Miller was indeed massively influential over the next couple of decades, returning to Sao Paolo and starting one of the biggest clubs there - suitably named Corinthians, the originals of which Miller had played against once or twice for St Mary's.
He is certainly revered in Brazil. When I went to the World Cup in Brazil in 2014 I went to the square in Sao Paolo called Praca Charles Miller, just in front of the Brazilian football museum, in which he features quite prominently.
All of this, and a lot more, is beautifully described in Josh Lacy's book "God is Brazilian. Charles Miller - The Man who brought football to Brazil."
Anyway, meanwhile, back in England, St Mary's were carving out their own history as they joined the inaugural Southern League in 1894 and changed their name to Southampton St Mary's.
Southampton St Mary's first tie in the F.A. Cup First round (Proper) was played on 2nd February 1895 against... Nottingham Forest. The game was played at the Antelope Ground near St Mary's church. Forest won 4-1 on a snow covered pitch. An estimated 7,000 turned up, probably adding pressure on the referee to permit the game to go ahead.
The Forest players apparently complained about the spartan state of the changing rooms at the ground and demanded an oil stove before the match eventually kicked off. Despite scoring 31 goals in the qualifying stages, the Saints were apparently no match for the "skill, subtlety and cohesion" of their opponents, with two goals from Thomas Rose. The local press blamed the defeat on the failure of the Southampton players to train adequately and also suggested that the "more northerly visitors were more accustomed to the Arctic conditions". This was, of course, the first competitive meeting of the two sides.
Millwall Athletic won the Southern League again the next season, with Southampton St Mary's also finishing 3rd before "The Saints" won their first silverware the season after.
In the second division, Freeemantle actually reached the top three that season and thus qualified to play Northfleet of the first division in a promotion test match. They won 3-0 but they resigned from the league, being replaced by "Royal Artillery" Portsmouth.
Freemantle joined the inaugural Hampshire League in 1896 and continued at a lower level for a few years but they couldn't compete with Southampton St Mary's as they kept winning silverware, and the club folded in 1905.
After their league success, St Mary's became a limited company and changed their name again, to just Southampton Football club.
They won the Southern League title again in 1897-98 (when the club played at Hampshire Cricket Ground) and for a third time in 1898-99 (now playing at their new ground, called The Dell) but the season after that they were joined by local rivals Portsmouth and finished third, with Spurs winning their first title.
(More on the rivalry with Portsmouth later.)
In 1900-01 Southampton won the Southern League for the 4th time.
In fact for the first ten years of the Southern League, Southampton had won it six times. The league had a high standard in the early days and it shouldn't be surprising that so many clubs that played in it did well in the F.A. Cup.
Southampton, in fact reached the F. A. Cup final twice in three years as a "non-league" side.
Their first final appearance was in 1899-1900. On their way to the final, Southampton beat three First Division sides: Everton (who finished 11th out of 18 teams) 3-0 in the 1st round, Newcastle United (5th) 4-1 in the second round, West Bromwich Albion (13th) 2-1 in the third round and then fellow Southern league side, Millwall Athletic 3-0 (in a replay after a 0-0 draw) in the semi final.
In the other semi-final, two first division sides played. Bury beat Nottingham Forest 3-2 at Bramall Lane, Sheffield, again in a replay after a 1-1 draw at Victoria Ground, Stoke.
So, Southampton's first F. A. Cup final appearance, in front of over 68,000 at Crystal Palace, was against another top tier side Bury (12th). I couldn't find any video clips but there are some great action pictures from the match...
Unfortunately for the Saints, Bury ran out easy winners that day, beating them 4-0.
As all true Forest fans should know, Bury won the F.A. Cup a second time just four years later, beating Derby County 6-0 in the final. This is still the heaviest defeat any club has suffered in a cup final.
An ever present in the side in that cup run was a legend of English sport, a certain C.B. (Charles Burgess) Fry. The term "all-rounder", well known in the sport of cricket, to which he was probably best known, seems to have been invented specifically to describe Fry. He was good with bat (probably best with it) and ball (right arm, fast medium) at cricket. He played 26 test matches for England and nearly 400 in county cricket. He is one of only eleven men who have been capped for England at both cricket and football.
Fry was only capped for England (at football) once - against Ireland in March 1901, a game played in Southampton, for whom Fry played 16 times for, at right back. He was also something of an athlete and did both the high jump and the long jump. He held the British long jump record and equaled the world record too, at one point. He was also pretty good at rugby union and was well known to do a bizarre piece of acrobatics as a party trick. Stood facing a mantle-piece, he'd leap up, twist in mid-air and land on the shelf, facing the people in the room!!
Hurrah!!!
Fry was also a teacher and then... a politician! At the age of 50 he stood (unsuccessfully) as a candidate at a general election for the Liberals at Brighton and then a few years later in Banbury and Oxford. In Banbury, he lost by just 219 votes.
He also had a long career as a writer and broadcaster and is related to the famous comedian, actor, writer, presenter etc etc... Stephen Fry. Some people are just good at everything!!
Anyway... again, Southampton beat three first division teams, and one fellow Southern League side, on the way. They needed two replays in the first round to overcome the then fellow non-league club, Tottenham Hotspur. They won 2-1 after a 1-1 and then a 2-2 draw.
In the 2nd round Saints beat First Division Liverpool (who finished 5th) 4-1 and then in the next round they got their revenge over first division Bury (8th), winning 3-2 at Gigg Lane.
That set up an enticing semi-final line up for football fans of the East Midlands...
Southampton v Nottingham Forest
Derby County v Sheffield United
Forest and Derby had just played in an all- East Midlands final just four years earlier so it looked like there might be a repeat of that here, but it wasn't to be. Southampton beat Nottingham Forest (10th in the first division) 3-1 at non-league Spurs' White Hart Lane and in the other semi, Sheffield United needed two replays to overcome Derby County.
In the final, the Blades dissected the Saints 2-1 after a replay.
So, the first four games between Forest and Southampton were all in the F.A. Cup...
After their second cup final defeat, Southampton went through a relatively barren period. Although they would never win the Southern League again, they remained the club that won it most, by the end of the first world war, when Southampton were finally admitted into the football league, in Division Three (South) as part of the major expansion in 1920.
The Saints almost got promotion in their first season in the league...
... but did so the very next...
Having reached the second tier of the Football League in 1922, Southampton would stay there for the next 26 seasons, most of which they competed with Forest.
Forest and Southampton met in the league for the first time at The Dell on 12th September 1925, Saints winning 3-1. They also won the return match at the City ground 2-1.
After the first four years of Southampton's entry into the league, when they were the top side, Portsmouth finished above Southampton for the next 30 seasons, most of which they played in a division above. After the war, Portsmouth won the First Division title twice, in 1948-49 and 1949-50. In 1954-55 season, Portsmouth finished 43 places higher than Southampton, as Pompey were 3rd in the First Division whilst Saints were 3rd in Division 3 South.
Southampton's rivalry with Forest was never as intense but we'd end up playing them a lot more. In fact the Saints and the Reds would play each other in the league every season until 1948-1949. Southampton had the upper hand in matches against for the first seven years or so, but Forest got on top for most of the later part, winning four games on the trot at one point between 1933-1934 and 1934-35.
Finally, the run was broken when Forest were relegated to Division Three (South). That season, Southampton only just missed out on promotion to the First Division - just one point behind West Bromwich Albion, with a better goal average.
Forest only took two seasons to bounce back from the third tier, by which time, Southampton's challenge to get promotion to the top flight had turned into a struggle to stay in the second.
They finally succumbed, ending their thirty year era as a second division club. In the four league games between the clubs in those two seasons, Southampton had the upper hand winning two, drawing one and losing one.
Southampton were one of the better sides in Division Three south and finished above half way when the North/South divisions were split into Third and forth Divisions in 1958-59.
Two seasons later they won the Third Division championship, scoring 106 goals in the process and gaining promotion back to the second tier once more.
The very season Southampton returned to the second division was the same season that Portsmouth were relegated to the third for the first time in their history. Portsmouth did bounce straight back but this was the start of a new era with Saints top dogs over Pompey. A situation that would last for the next 44 years.
In this (1978-79) season Southampton would finish 61 places above Portsmouth, but the highest would be in 2014-15 when Saints ended 77 places above them (only 14 less than the maximum.)
So, overall, this is a satisfying picture if your a Saints fan...
In in games between the sides too (just 70, not that many, considering both clubs have been in the league for almost 100 years) Saints are well on top. Sorry Pompey!
(see the excellent 11v11.com for a full list of games)
The Saints were definitely on the rise by the early 1960s and in just their sixth season back in the second division, they won promotion again, gaining promotion to the first Division for the first time in their history in 1966.
So, Southampton's first season in Division One, coincided with Forest's best season before the Cloughie era. The Reds finished as runners up to Manchester United and reached the F.A. Cup semi final as Southampton struggled, but succeeded to avoid relegation.
Southampton stayed in the top flight for eight years, finishing 7th twice, in 1969 and again in 1971. This was the side that included a young Mick Channon, Ron Davies and the Saints stalwart, Terry Paine, who would go on to make 713 appearances for the club.
Channon would make 510 appearances for the Saints in two spells from 1965 to 1977, and then again from 1979 to 1982.
In 1969, Southampton had their biggest ever attendance at The Dell. 31,044 packed in to watch the visit of Manchester United.
From 1966 until 1972 Forest and Southampton both played in the top flight and the matches between the clubs were well balanced with both clubs winning five each and drawing two.
The Saints were relegated back to the second division in 1973-74 season, taking them back down to to the same division as Forest, who had been relegated two years earlier. Southampton, here, could consider themselves unlucky to be the victims to a change in the football league rules. They were the first team to be relegated having finished third from bottom. 1972-73 was the last season "two-up-two-down" was operated.
So, by now, we come to a point in time where Southampton were playing in the same division as Forest when I was a fan.
In the 1974-75 season, I saw Southampton play twice, the first was at Meadow Lane, a 3-2 win for Notts in front of 7,830 in September and the second at the City Ground, a 0-0 draw in front of 11,554 in April.
No-one could have predicted it, but the next season was an historic one for Southampton. They had a pretty good season in the league, but not against Forest. We did the double over the Saints, winning 3-1 at home (attendance 12,677) in October and 3-0 at the Dell about a month later.
That 3-0 win was my first visit to the Dell, and my 16th ground visited. Three second half goals, two from Ian Bowyer and one from Paul Richardson gave us a surprising big away win.
It was one of the first times I'd been to an away game on ForestRail and I remember being very scared getting lost on the way back to the station. It's hard to imagine a 16 year old would be allowed to go off on such an adventure these days.
What was remarkable about this season for Southampton was their cup run.
In the third round, Southampton drew first division Aston Villa at home but could only draw 1-1. At the time Southampton were 4th place in the second division so were very much in the promotion race. Four days later, though, the Saints won 2-1 at Villa Park to reach the 4th round where they beat second division Blackpool at the Dell, 3-1 to move into the last 16.
Drawn away to fellow promotion contenders, West Bromwich Albion, Southampton drew 1-1 before smashing them 4-0 back at the Dell to reach the quarter finals.
Southampton got a lucky draw in the 6th round away to fourth division giant killers, Bradford City - who had beaten Norwich 2-1 at Carrow Road in the previous round.
Their luck continued in the semi finals where they were drawn to play third division Crystal Palace, avoiding two teams chasing the First Division title, Manchester United and Derby County.
So, Southampton found themselves in an F. A. Cup Final for the third time - the first in 74 years - where they faced a very strong Manchester United side, a team that looked as if they might win the league.
Southampton were still in with a good shout at promotion, but there was no doubt that United were strong favourites.
Amazingly, for the second time in four years, it would be a team from the second division that won the cup when Bobby Stokes scored the only goal of the game with just seven minutes left on the clock.
Here are the highlights...
Southampton's glorious cup run clearly took their eye off the ball in the second division promotion race and they ended in 6th spot.
Of course, the next season was a great one for Forest as we managed to win promotion to the top tier where we would go, amazingly, to win the league as I am describing in these blogs.
Overall, Forest had the better of the matches between the two sides in this spell when both clubs were in the second division.
Southampton would join us in the top flight themselves the season after - that is, this season being described. So, as we approach this season's league cup final, all that remains is to summarise the two sides history and look at how the two clubs got to Wembley.
League Cup 1978-79 Recap
So to the semi-final and a week after Forest had beaten Watford 3-1 in our first leg, Southampton played at Elland Road in their semi-final against Leeds United.
Being in our most crazy football fan periods and because Graham, one of the Sherwood Hall crowd was from Southampton, we decided to go up the M1 to watch. I didn't realise it at the time, but I think this was my 300th match and it would be a dramatic one for all the wrong reasons.
Leeds thugs ruin Saints Semi-Final Memory
I couldn't find any video highlights for the match but here's the Guardian report...
Here's the first. As Woodcock slides the ball across, Birtles is clearly behind Chris Nicholl.
So, it could easily have been 5-2 in the end. Still, I think everyone who watched will remember it as a great final.
When Forest won the trophy the previous season, they did so with just 14 players, one of which was the reserve keeper, Chris Woods. This season, Forest used 17 players. Garry Birtles, who replaced Steve Elliott after the first two games was top scorer. There were just two ever present player: Peter Shilton and, of course, John Robertson.
This period was (and still is) Southampton's best ever three year period in the league too.
Ironically, just after this three year spell, another Southampton icon was to arrive on the scene.
In October 1986, an 18-year old called Matthew Le Tissier made his debut for the club against Norwich City.
Le Tissier would end up making 443 league appearances for the Saints, scoring 161 goals, over 16 years. Apart from a few cameo appearances for Eastleigh and Guernsey, Southampton would be his only club.
Here's a four minute celebration of the player...
There is a small football squad's worth of footballers who have played for both clubs but the big stand out, obviously, is Peter Shilton, who made 390 league appearances for the two clubs in ten years from 1977.
Probably the most significant others, in the era covered here, are midfielder David Prutton and goalie Peter Wells who both made more than 150 league appearances for both clubs (combined). Just after the war an inside right called Jack Edwards did a similar feat and in more recent times the same could be said for Danny Fox.
Forest still slightly out-did Southampton in this period though, finishing higher than them on 12 out of 22 occasions until the end of the century.
Early the new century, Southampton were involved In one of football's more satisfying recent ground moves, when they returned very close to the site of their origin. Their new ground, fittingly called St Mary's, is less than a kilometer away from the church where it all began.
Still, there are still eight games to go and we're only three points off the top six. If Forest can just get a bit of form going and win a couple, things could change very quickly.
In this blog post, I pay due respect to the fascinating history of a great old English club, Southampton which includes sub-plots to the founder of football in Brazil and, surely, England's No 1 all-rounder of all time. As usual this history includes a look at their quaint old ground, the Dell which was one of my first away games. As is the trend, Southampton recently moved from the Dell to a standard, homogeneous-looking modern stadium. But this move, at least has a positive ending as Southampton's new ground, St Mary's has taken them back to within 1 km of where it all began.
After watching Forest demolish the Saints at Wembley we will quickly trace events up until the end of the century, including Southampton's best ever season in 1983-84 when they were runners up to Liverpool with forest 3rd and a look at some of the heroes for both clubs
Finally, I'll catch right up to date and have a good old moan about the sequence of terrible refereeing decisions Forest have been getting since the O'Neill era began.
Previously... Crushed Grasshoppers
From St Mary's to McMenemy (and Brazil)
A Brief History of Southampton F.C.
Right in the center of Southampton is an old church called St Mary's. It's the biggest in the city and it's very closely tied up to the history of football both there, and bizarrely, but much less closely, to football in Brazil. The church's Young Men's Association formed a football club there on 21st November 1885 (twenty years after Forest, remember.)
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| Saints' First Kit (HistoricKits.co.uk) |
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| St Mary's, Southampton |
Now here's an odd little twist in the Southampton F.C. tale. The year before St Mary's YMA (as it was most often called in its early days) was formed, a nine year old boy called Charles Miller and his eleven year old brother, Henry, had been sent across the Atlantic by his parents, John and Carlota, from Sao Paulo, Brazil. John Miller, a Scottish engineer, had gone to live in Brazil to work on a massive railway project designed to take the ever growing Brazilian production of coffee beans from Sao Paolo to the port of Santos for export to the world. Carlota, a Brazilian with English ancestry, had also given birth to two girls back in Brazil.
Charles had been sent back to "blighty" to get an English education. For reasons unknown (at least to me, and from my limited research, the authors of books I've read too), the school they chose was a small one called Banister Court, in Southampton. Maybe it was just because it was close to the port where the boys got off their boat. It was one of many such schools in the Victorian era, that would promote team sports for boys as an important way of strengthening character and resolve, in the traditional "Christian" way. It was run by a young head master called Christopher Ellaby who had a football-orientated upbringing. It was a strict school with corporal punishment being dished out every day but if you were good at sport, you'd get on quite well, it seems.
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| Charles and Henry Miller in Brazil |
By the time St Mary's football club was established, Charles' parents had returned from Brazil themselves and gone to live in Glasgow, near where his dad, John Miller, was born. Tragedy struck, however, and John died, suddenly. Charles continued his schooling in Southampton and what would become a rather football-focused education. He became captain of the school team for his last two years at Banister Court.
It was during those early years of St Mary's football club that Charles Miller was a regular. The club played a series of friendlies - sometimes against an almost mystical old club from London, called the Corinthians, including the famous C. B. Fry, who would later play for Southampton. The club are well known for their ridiculously gentlemanly conduct, such as their refusal to score from the penalty spot because the club deemed it too one-sided a contest.
The other big club in Southampton in those early years was Freemantle (yes, with two "E"s) and St Mary's and the "magpies" (Freemantle played in black & white) would often contest the Hampshire Cup final. Freemantle also originated from a church's Young Men's Association: Christ Church. Plenty "God Squads" involved in football in those days.
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| Freemantle F.C. |
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| Where is Freemantle? |
St Mary's first entered the F.A. Cup in 1891 and beat a club from just north of Bristol, called Warmley, 2-1 in the first qualifying round before slaughtering Reading 7-0 in the second round.
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| Saints kit in their 1891 Cup Run (HistoricKits.co.uk) |
However, there was something a little dodgy about their team that day, as it included two soldiers, MacMillan and Flemming who, Reading claimed, had been paid. These were the days when The Cup had a strict policy of amateurism and so the F.A. disqualified the Saints, leaving Reading to pass through into the next round - only to get stuffed again by a team from near Nottingham, 6-2 by Clifton.
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| Charles Miller at St Mary's in 1894 |
After a short period of pretending to be an amateur club, St Mary's got the sniff of money again after a massive crowd had watched them lose 0-8 to Stoke City in a friendly and they openly paraded a couple of big money signings before reaching the 1893-94 Hampshire Cup Final, again against Freemantle. By now, the club were becoming much more competitive in nature and talented young ex-schoolboys like Charles Miller were left out, deemed no match for professional players they could just buy.
There were rumors in the local press that Charles Miller would join Freemantle in the close season of 1894 that followed but, in the end, Miller decided instead to catch a boat for the long return journey back to Brazil.
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| Saints kit in 1895 (HistoricKits.co.uk) |
The legend has it that when he arrived in Brazil he was greeted by his father (who was actually dead, remember - so don't place too much credence on the plausibility of this!)
This is apparently the account of Charles himself:
"On the quay at Santos, solemn, as if he were at a funeral, my father was waiting for me to disembark holding my degree certificate. But in fact I appeared in front of him with two footballs, one in each hand... The old man, surprised, inquired: - What is this, Charles? - My degree, I replied. - What? - Yes! Your son has graduated in football... The old man, in good spirits, laughed. I was off the hook."
This myth has become the story which describes the birth of football in Brazil and Charles Miller was indeed massively influential over the next couple of decades, returning to Sao Paolo and starting one of the biggest clubs there - suitably named Corinthians, the originals of which Miller had played against once or twice for St Mary's.
He is certainly revered in Brazil. When I went to the World Cup in Brazil in 2014 I went to the square in Sao Paolo called Praca Charles Miller, just in front of the Brazilian football museum, in which he features quite prominently.
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| Praca Charles miller |
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| One Charles Miller, there's only one Charles miller |
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| Museum piece on Miller |
All of this, and a lot more, is beautifully described in Josh Lacy's book "God is Brazilian. Charles Miller - The Man who brought football to Brazil."
Anyway, meanwhile, back in England, St Mary's were carving out their own history as they joined the inaugural Southern League in 1894 and changed their name to Southampton St Mary's.
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| The First Ever Southern League Table |
Southampton St Mary's first tie in the F.A. Cup First round (Proper) was played on 2nd February 1895 against... Nottingham Forest. The game was played at the Antelope Ground near St Mary's church. Forest won 4-1 on a snow covered pitch. An estimated 7,000 turned up, probably adding pressure on the referee to permit the game to go ahead.
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| The Antelope Ground - Southampton St Mary's Ground for 12 years until 1897 |
The Forest players apparently complained about the spartan state of the changing rooms at the ground and demanded an oil stove before the match eventually kicked off. Despite scoring 31 goals in the qualifying stages, the Saints were apparently no match for the "skill, subtlety and cohesion" of their opponents, with two goals from Thomas Rose. The local press blamed the defeat on the failure of the Southampton players to train adequately and also suggested that the "more northerly visitors were more accustomed to the Arctic conditions". This was, of course, the first competitive meeting of the two sides.
Millwall Athletic won the Southern League again the next season, with Southampton St Mary's also finishing 3rd before "The Saints" won their first silverware the season after.
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| Southampton win the Southern league as St Mary's for the last time in 1896-97 |
In the second division, Freeemantle actually reached the top three that season and thus qualified to play Northfleet of the first division in a promotion test match. They won 3-0 but they resigned from the league, being replaced by "Royal Artillery" Portsmouth.
Freemantle joined the inaugural Hampshire League in 1896 and continued at a lower level for a few years but they couldn't compete with Southampton St Mary's as they kept winning silverware, and the club folded in 1905.
After their league success, St Mary's became a limited company and changed their name again, to just Southampton Football club.
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| Saints kit from 1896 (HistoricKits.co.uk) |
They won the Southern League title again in 1897-98 (when the club played at Hampshire Cricket Ground) and for a third time in 1898-99 (now playing at their new ground, called The Dell) but the season after that they were joined by local rivals Portsmouth and finished third, with Spurs winning their first title.
(More on the rivalry with Portsmouth later.)
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| First match at The Dell in 1989 Apparently the game was kicked off (ceremoniously only, I hope) by The Mayor |
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| 1898 - Southampton F.C. moved to The Dell |
In 1900-01 Southampton won the Southern League for the 4th time.
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| Southern League 1901 |
In fact for the first ten years of the Southern League, Southampton had won it six times. The league had a high standard in the early days and it shouldn't be surprising that so many clubs that played in it did well in the F.A. Cup.
Southampton, in fact reached the F. A. Cup final twice in three years as a "non-league" side.
Their first final appearance was in 1899-1900. On their way to the final, Southampton beat three First Division sides: Everton (who finished 11th out of 18 teams) 3-0 in the 1st round, Newcastle United (5th) 4-1 in the second round, West Bromwich Albion (13th) 2-1 in the third round and then fellow Southern league side, Millwall Athletic 3-0 (in a replay after a 0-0 draw) in the semi final.
In the other semi-final, two first division sides played. Bury beat Nottingham Forest 3-2 at Bramall Lane, Sheffield, again in a replay after a 1-1 draw at Victoria Ground, Stoke.
So, Southampton's first F. A. Cup final appearance, in front of over 68,000 at Crystal Palace, was against another top tier side Bury (12th). I couldn't find any video clips but there are some great action pictures from the match...
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| Classic images from the 1900 F.A. Cup Final - Bury v Southampton |
Unfortunately for the Saints, Bury ran out easy winners that day, beating them 4-0.
As all true Forest fans should know, Bury won the F.A. Cup a second time just four years later, beating Derby County 6-0 in the final. This is still the heaviest defeat any club has suffered in a cup final.
Southampton's F.A. Cup Final appearance v Sheffield United 1902
Before Bury's 6-0 thrashing of the Rams, Saints were in another final themselves in 1901-02.An ever present in the side in that cup run was a legend of English sport, a certain C.B. (Charles Burgess) Fry. The term "all-rounder", well known in the sport of cricket, to which he was probably best known, seems to have been invented specifically to describe Fry. He was good with bat (probably best with it) and ball (right arm, fast medium) at cricket. He played 26 test matches for England and nearly 400 in county cricket. He is one of only eleven men who have been capped for England at both cricket and football.
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| Fry facing the bowling |
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| CB Fry's Impressive Cricinfo |
Fry was only capped for England (at football) once - against Ireland in March 1901, a game played in Southampton, for whom Fry played 16 times for, at right back. He was also something of an athlete and did both the high jump and the long jump. He held the British long jump record and equaled the world record too, at one point. He was also pretty good at rugby union and was well known to do a bizarre piece of acrobatics as a party trick. Stood facing a mantle-piece, he'd leap up, twist in mid-air and land on the shelf, facing the people in the room!!
Hurrah!!!
Fry was also a teacher and then... a politician! At the age of 50 he stood (unsuccessfully) as a candidate at a general election for the Liberals at Brighton and then a few years later in Banbury and Oxford. In Banbury, he lost by just 219 votes.
He also had a long career as a writer and broadcaster and is related to the famous comedian, actor, writer, presenter etc etc... Stephen Fry. Some people are just good at everything!!
Anyway... again, Southampton beat three first division teams, and one fellow Southern League side, on the way. They needed two replays in the first round to overcome the then fellow non-league club, Tottenham Hotspur. They won 2-1 after a 1-1 and then a 2-2 draw.
In the 2nd round Saints beat First Division Liverpool (who finished 5th) 4-1 and then in the next round they got their revenge over first division Bury (8th), winning 3-2 at Gigg Lane.
That set up an enticing semi-final line up for football fans of the East Midlands...
Southampton v Nottingham Forest
Derby County v Sheffield United
Forest and Derby had just played in an all- East Midlands final just four years earlier so it looked like there might be a repeat of that here, but it wasn't to be. Southampton beat Nottingham Forest (10th in the first division) 3-1 at non-league Spurs' White Hart Lane and in the other semi, Sheffield United needed two replays to overcome Derby County.
In the final, the Blades dissected the Saints 2-1 after a replay.
So, the first four games between Forest and Southampton were all in the F.A. Cup...
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| Forest 2 Southampton 1 - (Wins in the early years) |
After their second cup final defeat, Southampton went through a relatively barren period. Although they would never win the Southern League again, they remained the club that won it most, by the end of the first world war, when Southampton were finally admitted into the football league, in Division Three (South) as part of the major expansion in 1920.
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| Southampton F.C. - By far the most successful club in the Southern League in 1920. |
The Saints almost got promotion in their first season in the league...
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| Southampton's first season in the Football League |
... but did so the very next...
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| Saints' First title for 18 years takes them to Division Two |
Having reached the second tier of the Football League in 1922, Southampton would stay there for the next 26 seasons, most of which they competed with Forest.
Forest and Southampton met in the league for the first time at The Dell on 12th September 1925, Saints winning 3-1. They also won the return match at the City ground 2-1.
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| Southampton and Forest in the same division for the first time |
Pompey v Saints Rivalry
One of the famous English football rivalries is that between Portsmouth and Southampton but it is surprising (at least to me) that despite the two clubs being of similar size and the cities having similar populations, they haven't actually played in the same league as each other as much as one would expect.
After the first four years of Southampton's entry into the league, when they were the top side, Portsmouth finished above Southampton for the next 30 seasons, most of which they played in a division above. After the war, Portsmouth won the First Division title twice, in 1948-49 and 1949-50. In 1954-55 season, Portsmouth finished 43 places higher than Southampton, as Pompey were 3rd in the First Division whilst Saints were 3rd in Division 3 South.
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| Forest were regular visitors to the Dell in the 1930s, including a 7-2 defeat there on 15th Feb 1936 |
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| Southampton 15 Forest 14 in the middle years |
Finally, the run was broken when Forest were relegated to Division Three (South). That season, Southampton only just missed out on promotion to the First Division - just one point behind West Bromwich Albion, with a better goal average.
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| Forest relegated, Southampton almost promoted |
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| Black Shorts from 1950 |
Forest only took two seasons to bounce back from the third tier, by which time, Southampton's challenge to get promotion to the top flight had turned into a struggle to stay in the second.
They finally succumbed, ending their thirty year era as a second division club. In the four league games between the clubs in those two seasons, Southampton had the upper hand winning two, drawing one and losing one.
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| Saints relegated back to the third tier in 1953. |
Southampton were one of the better sides in Division Three south and finished above half way when the North/South divisions were split into Third and forth Divisions in 1958-59.
Two seasons later they won the Third Division championship, scoring 106 goals in the process and gaining promotion back to the second tier once more.
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| Southampton storm back to the Second division in the 1960s |
The very season Southampton returned to the second division was the same season that Portsmouth were relegated to the third for the first time in their history. Portsmouth did bounce straight back but this was the start of a new era with Saints top dogs over Pompey. A situation that would last for the next 44 years.
In this (1978-79) season Southampton would finish 61 places above Portsmouth, but the highest would be in 2014-15 when Saints ended 77 places above them (only 14 less than the maximum.)
So, overall, this is a satisfying picture if your a Saints fan...
In in games between the sides too (just 70, not that many, considering both clubs have been in the league for almost 100 years) Saints are well on top. Sorry Pompey!
(see the excellent 11v11.com for a full list of games)
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| Southampton 34 Portsmouth 21 |
The Saints were definitely on the rise by the early 1960s and in just their sixth season back in the second division, they won promotion again, gaining promotion to the first Division for the first time in their history in 1966.
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| Southampton promoted to the top tier for the first time |
So, Southampton's first season in Division One, coincided with Forest's best season before the Cloughie era. The Reds finished as runners up to Manchester United and reached the F.A. Cup semi final as Southampton struggled, but succeeded to avoid relegation.
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| Forest's best season BC was Southampton's first in the top tier |
Southampton stayed in the top flight for eight years, finishing 7th twice, in 1969 and again in 1971. This was the side that included a young Mick Channon, Ron Davies and the Saints stalwart, Terry Paine, who would go on to make 713 appearances for the club.
Channon would make 510 appearances for the Saints in two spells from 1965 to 1977, and then again from 1979 to 1982.
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| Best Southampton side ever - up until 1970, at least |
In 1969, Southampton had their biggest ever attendance at The Dell. 31,044 packed in to watch the visit of Manchester United.
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| Biggest crowd at The Dell v Manchester United in 1969 |
From 1966 until 1972 Forest and Southampton both played in the top flight and the matches between the clubs were well balanced with both clubs winning five each and drawing two.
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| Southampton 6 Forest 5 in the period up to the relegation of the two clubs |
The Saints were relegated back to the second division in 1973-74 season, taking them back down to to the same division as Forest, who had been relegated two years earlier. Southampton, here, could consider themselves unlucky to be the victims to a change in the football league rules. They were the first team to be relegated having finished third from bottom. 1972-73 was the last season "two-up-two-down" was operated.
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| Three-down in 1974 - including Southampton |
So, by now, we come to a point in time where Southampton were playing in the same division as Forest when I was a fan.
In the 1974-75 season, I saw Southampton play twice, the first was at Meadow Lane, a 3-2 win for Notts in front of 7,830 in September and the second at the City Ground, a 0-0 draw in front of 11,554 in April.
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| The division in which I watched Southampton for the first time |
No-one could have predicted it, but the next season was an historic one for Southampton. They had a pretty good season in the league, but not against Forest. We did the double over the Saints, winning 3-1 at home (attendance 12,677) in October and 3-0 at the Dell about a month later.
That 3-0 win was my first visit to the Dell, and my 16th ground visited. Three second half goals, two from Ian Bowyer and one from Paul Richardson gave us a surprising big away win.
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| The Quwerky old Dell |
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| The Dell - 16th Ground Visited |
It was one of the first times I'd been to an away game on ForestRail and I remember being very scared getting lost on the way back to the station. It's hard to imagine a 16 year old would be allowed to go off on such an adventure these days.
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| Love that all-colour front cover |
What was remarkable about this season for Southampton was their cup run.
In the third round, Southampton drew first division Aston Villa at home but could only draw 1-1. At the time Southampton were 4th place in the second division so were very much in the promotion race. Four days later, though, the Saints won 2-1 at Villa Park to reach the 4th round where they beat second division Blackpool at the Dell, 3-1 to move into the last 16.
Drawn away to fellow promotion contenders, West Bromwich Albion, Southampton drew 1-1 before smashing them 4-0 back at the Dell to reach the quarter finals.
Southampton got a lucky draw in the 6th round away to fourth division giant killers, Bradford City - who had beaten Norwich 2-1 at Carrow Road in the previous round.
Their luck continued in the semi finals where they were drawn to play third division Crystal Palace, avoiding two teams chasing the First Division title, Manchester United and Derby County.
So, Southampton found themselves in an F. A. Cup Final for the third time - the first in 74 years - where they faced a very strong Manchester United side, a team that looked as if they might win the league.
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| Manchester United, three points behind with two games in hand as they reached the Cup Final |
Southampton were still in with a good shout at promotion, but there was no doubt that United were strong favourites.
Amazingly, for the second time in four years, it would be a team from the second division that won the cup when Bobby Stokes scored the only goal of the game with just seven minutes left on the clock.
Here are the highlights...
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| Glory for Southampton in 1976 - still their only major domestic trophy |
Southampton's glorious cup run clearly took their eye off the ball in the second division promotion race and they ended in 6th spot.
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| The last season when teams were separated on goal average |
Of course, the next season was a great one for Forest as we managed to win promotion to the top tier where we would go, amazingly, to win the league as I am describing in these blogs.
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| The previous time I'd seen Southampton, as forest launched their promotion bid |
Overall, Forest had the better of the matches between the two sides in this spell when both clubs were in the second division.
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| Forest 4 Southampton 1 in the second division phase |
Southampton would join us in the top flight themselves the season after - that is, this season being described. So, as we approach this season's league cup final, all that remains is to summarise the two sides history and look at how the two clubs got to Wembley.
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| The win at Wembley was Forest's 27th against Southampton in all competitions |
Forest 56 Southampton 20
As the teams prepared for the clash at Wembley Forest had finished higher in the league than Southampton on 56 (out of 76) seasons, but to be fair to the Southern Football League, which was certainly very strong in the early days, one should really only count those seasons since Southampton joined the Football League.
When one does this, the score gets a lot closer: Forest 34 to Southampton's 20 in 54 seasons.)
League Cup 1978-79 Recap
So, let's turn our attention to the League Cup of 1978-79. Forest, remember, had had a relatively easy passage through the early rounds, beating Oldham Athletic 4-2 (after a 0-0 draw at Boundary Park), a 5-0 win at Oxford United.
But then they faced in form Everton away in the last 16. Forest managed to win that 3-2 at Goodison Park to set up a quarter final tie against Brighton & Hove Albion at home. Forest won that 3-1 to earn their place against giant killers, Watford. Graham Taylor's Hornets were marching up the league but Forest managed to overcome them to get to Wembley for the second time running.
Southampton's passage was relatively tricky...
In the second round, Southampton had been drawn away at fellow first division (but struggling) Birmingham City. 18,464 watched the Saints smash the Blues 5-2. Ted MacDougall and Phil Boyer scored two each and David Peach scored for Southampton, whilst Joe Gallacher and Trevor Francis scored for Birmingham. Alas, that appearance meant Francis was cup-tied and so couldn't play in Forest's run.
In the 3rd Round Southampton beat Derby County 1-0 at the Dell in front of 19,109 fans. Phil Boyer scored the goal. In the last 16 The Saints draw Reading away. After a 0-0 draw at Elm Park in front of 24,046, Southampton won the replay 2-0 with goals from Trevor Hebbert and Chris Nicholl.
In the quarter final, Southampton beat well fancied Manchester City 2-1 at home through goals from Hebberd and Boyer. Chris Nicholl scored an own goal for City.
Being in our most crazy football fan periods and because Graham, one of the Sherwood Hall crowd was from Southampton, we decided to go up the M1 to watch. I didn't realise it at the time, but I think this was my 300th match and it would be a dramatic one for all the wrong reasons.
Leeds thugs ruin Saints Semi-Final Memory
Match 300: Wed 24th January 1979, Leeds United 2 Southampton 2
(Elland Road 3rd, Leeds United 7th, Southampton 7th)
Chesterfield very kindly drove us there in his little mini van. Boro, Graham and I made four of us out of the 33,415 fans there that night.
Leeds went into a 2-0 lead after 48 minutes but Nick Holmes pulled a goal back and then Steve Williams equalised to stun the Leeds fans.
Leeds went into a 2-0 lead after 48 minutes but Nick Holmes pulled a goal back and then Steve Williams equalised to stun the Leeds fans.
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| Holmes makes it 2-1 |
After the match we trundled away from the ground, quite excitedly, back towards the car park in the cold along snow covered pavements.
The car was parked in a field and as we turned off the pavement and started to walk towards it, away from the street lights, I became aware that a group of young Leeds fans were following us. I didn't think it would be a good idea to keep walking into the dark so I stopped and turned and challenged them.
"What's up lads? Are you following us?" (In my best Yorkshire accent.)
"You Southampton?" Muttered one of them.
"No. Leeds, mate. I'm from Mansfield and me mates are from Thirsk" I offered.
"Where's your scarves then?" One grunted.
"Don't have one. So what?" I squeaked.
Boro joined in to reassure them that we were not Southampton fans but Chesterfield (from Twickenham - don't ask! it's a long story!) and Graham, quite understandably kept walking towards the car.
At one point, one of them pointed this out and said something like
"Why's he running off then?"
In the moment, Graham must have jogged a bit quicker to get back to the mini but before he could get in, these Leeds yobs started chasing them. Graham then sped off into the dark with the Leeds lads in tow leaving us behind.
I am not sure why we didn't take chase too although in my case there certainly was a degree of blatant cowardice. What the locals couldn't have known was that Graham was a very fast runner at both short and long distances so I think we must have convinced ourselves that he'd be able to out run them and find some way back to safety.
We waited and waited but there was no sign of Graham.
Eventually we found our way to a police station and reported the incident and waited there.
Sure enough, eventually, he was found and a police car brought him back to the station we were at.
Graham had been badly beaten by the Leeds thugs. The absolute bastards!
Looking back on that night, forty years on, I still feel really guilty that we didn't chase after them. Maybe we could have made it a better outcome. It's a good thought that these days, at least, we'd have been able to call the police immediately and hopefully have got him out of that mess.
Nobody deserves anything like that but Graham is such a nice, intelligent chap. If any Leeds thug ever comes across this I just hope they feel guilty about what they did that night.
2nd Leg - Southampton 1 Leeds United 0
Anyway, back to the football, and six days later, as Forest were clinging on to a draw at Vicarage Road to edge past Watford, Southampton were beating Leeds with a Terry Curran goal in front of 23,645 fans.
Match 316: Saturday, 17th March 1979
League Cup Final, Nottingham Forest 3 Southampton 2
(Wembley 7th, Forest 22nd, Southampton 8th)
This was my eleventh game in 21 days and I can't remember much about it. I think I went down with some Forest fans on a bus, perhaps a Barton Bus. And I remember it being a glorious second half after a bit of a frustrating first.
We had no idea of the shenanigans going off behind the scenes that day but plenty stories emanated form the Forest camp in the weeks and years later of bizarre, but typically Cloughie-style, preparations.
The night before the match, Clough insisted that all the players had a few drinks together in the hotel, West Lodge Park Hotel in Barnet. According to John Roberston's autobiography "Supertramp" he got the players all to report to the lounge as soon as they arrived where Brian was waiting with a stack of drinks ready for them - champagne, wine or anything you fancied.
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| Be in the lounge - and let's have a drink! |
"Come on lads, let's have a drink!" he chirped.
Now this might be music to the ears for many (me included), perhaps the night before a big cup final might not have been the best timing. I guess the reason was to relax the players and help them get a good night's sleep before hand.
As Robbo put it "at least a couple of the lads were, shall we say, a little worse for wear before the night was out". Archie Gemmill, aparently was not happy with it all and was keen to go to bed but Cloughie insisted they all the players stayed up.
The story, of course, is that the reason for the very poor first half display was simply a collective hangover which, thankfully had worn off by half time.
It certainly was "a game of two halves".
The Programme
The Teams
There were no surprises in the Forest line up. Viv Anderson was still out of the side so Colin Barrett and Frank Clark made up the back four along with Larry Lloyd and David Needham.
Nottingham Forest
1 Peter Shilton, 2 Colin Barrett, 3 Frank Clark, 4 John McGovern, 5 Larry Lloyd, 6 David Needham, 7 Martin O'Neill, 8 Archie Gemmill, 9 Garry Birtles, 10 Tony Woodcock, 11 John Robertson.
Goals: Garry Birtles 2, Tony Woodcock 1.
Southampton
1 Terrance Gennoe, 2 Ivan Golac, 3 David Peach, 4 Steve Williams, 5 Chris Nicholl, 6 Malcom Waldron, 7 Alan Ball, 8 Phil Boyer, 9 Austin Hayes, 10 Nick Holmes, 11 Terry Curran.
Goals : David Peach 1, Nick Holmes 1.
Substitutions: Tony Sealy(12) came on for Austin Hayes (9).
Attendance: 100,000
The Report
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| We won the Cup! |
The video
Here's twenty minutes of highlights of what really was a great cup final with Brian Moore the commentator. Forest's domination in the second half is awesome to watch and I'm sure Garry Birtles should have had two more goals too, as I doubt either of those disallowed were actually off-side.
Here's the first. As Woodcock slides the ball across, Birtles is clearly behind Chris Nicholl.
The second is a little more difficult as the defender only comes into the frame after the ball has been played by Gemmill. But I think at this point he's on-side and so probably was just before this.
So, it could easily have been 5-2 in the end. Still, I think everyone who watched will remember it as a great final.
Credit to the Players
So, after going 19 years without any silverware, Forest had now won their third major domestic trophy in just over a year.
When Forest won the trophy the previous season, they did so with just 14 players, one of which was the reserve keeper, Chris Woods. This season, Forest used 17 players. Garry Birtles, who replaced Steve Elliott after the first two games was top scorer. There were just two ever present player: Peter Shilton and, of course, John Robertson.
Silverware Update
This was the 19th "edition" of the League Cup and Forest's win made them only the 4th of 14 teams to have won it more than once.
Overall, this was Forest's 5th major domestic trophy. Amazingly this took them above clubs like Leeds United, Chelsea and Derby County in the English silverware table.
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| Forest up to 14th in the all-time English Silverware League |
What Happened Next?
Southampton would stay in the top flight longer than Forest from this point. They'd stay there for 26 years in all, finally getting relegated in 2004-05. Forest managed 17 years in the top tier under Cloughie before being relegated in 1992-93.
The Saints reached their highest place ever in the football league in 1983-84, finishing runners up to (of course) Liverpool, by just three points. Forest had a great season too, finishing third - the first of three seasons in six years we did that. Manchester United, then under Ron Atkinson looked like they might win the league themselves that season for the first time since 1967 but in the end it was Liverpool, again, winning their 15th First Division title, seven more than second placed Arsenal.
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| Southampton 1983-84 |
This was Laurie McMenemy's eleventh season in charge at the Dell. He'd have just one more after that, before trying his hand at his last league club, Sunderland. It shouldn't be a surprise that in goal for Southampton as an ever present during this season was our own, good old Peter Shilton. Ex-Middlesbrough striker, David Armstrong was another player that didn't miss a match, and a third was Nick Holmes. Danny Wallace only missed one game and Steve Moran was the Saints' top scorer with 21 league goals.
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| Southampton's best ever season in the League |
At least Southampton will always have the "moral victory" of beating Liverpool 2-0 at the Dell that season - at the time their fourth league win on the trot. After getting a 1-1 draw at Anfield early in the season, Southampton fans can certainly look back on that season with a great deal of pride.
Here are the highlights of that match with two goals from Danny Wallace...
Southampton beat Forest at the the City ground 1-0 on the opening day of that season, but lost the return at at the Dell, also by 1-0 in January.
This period was (and still is) Southampton's best ever three year period in the league too.
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| First Division 1982-1985 - Southampton's best ever. |
Ironically, just after this three year spell, another Southampton icon was to arrive on the scene.
In October 1986, an 18-year old called Matthew Le Tissier made his debut for the club against Norwich City.
Le Tissier would end up making 443 league appearances for the Saints, scoring 161 goals, over 16 years. Apart from a few cameo appearances for Eastleigh and Guernsey, Southampton would be his only club.
Here's a four minute celebration of the player...
There is a small football squad's worth of footballers who have played for both clubs but the big stand out, obviously, is Peter Shilton, who made 390 league appearances for the two clubs in ten years from 1977.
Probably the most significant others, in the era covered here, are midfielder David Prutton and goalie Peter Wells who both made more than 150 league appearances for both clubs (combined). Just after the war an inside right called Jack Edwards did a similar feat and in more recent times the same could be said for Danny Fox.
Forest still slightly out-did Southampton in this period though, finishing higher than them on 12 out of 22 occasions until the end of the century.
The summary table of all first division games played from the start of the 1977-78 season to the end of the 1998-99 season, shows forest in an impressive 6th place, with Southampton not far behind in 8th.
Ah... them wo't' days!!
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| English First Division Summary table 1977-1999 |
Saints Return to St Mary's
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| St Mary's Stadium |
The Latest from Forest
As we're now well into the Martin O'Neill era I will continue ending these posts with the latest update of the very most recent events from the City Ground.
Since my last post, Forest have played three more games with very mixed results.
The first was at home to Hull City and Forest powered to a 3-0 win with three second half goals. The first was a cracker from our 13 million pound man Jao Carvalho. Carvalho had been brought on to liven things up by O'Neill and he certainly did that. Karim Ansarifard was also brought on, and scored. So a great day for Martin.
This set up the tantalizing prospect of a top six place. "All" they needed to do was win their 5th home league game on the trot against Aston Villa and we'd finally reach the play off zone, well ahead of schedule. When Jack Colback scored a (flukey) goal in the first couple of minutes it looked like the dream was on, but Villa stormed back with two quick goals. 2-1 to Villa after just 15 minutes made it seem like we could have a repeat of the crazy 5-5 draw the two sides had played out at Villa park earlier in the season, but instead Villa shut up shop and started time wasting and being pretty cynical. Forest had a goal disallowed early in the second half. No complaints, but if Benalouane had managed to get his head to the ball without pushing the defender, you never know, maybe it could have been a different game. Instead a terrible defensive lapse let Villa score a third and they never looked in danger from then on.
Last night Forest played the first game of their "easy" (yes, silly me for thinking that) run in, away at bottom club Ipswich. Full of hope and expectation, I was filled with dismay as, again, a defensive lapse allowed the Tractor Boys to score an early goal. The match was a very scrappy affair in very windy conditions but Forest managed to scramble an equaliser. Then, just before half time, Daryl Murphy scored a goal that should have put us 2-1 up but, inexplicably, it was ruled off side. For the third time in recent weeks Forest have been the victim of a poor, but critical, refereeing decision that could have cost us a win.
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| Yet another goal ruled out by poor refereeing at Ipswich |
I know it's easy to moan and that all of these things are supposed to even themselves out over a whole season but this really is getting very frustrating. Three away games under Martin O'Neill have been affected by this now. If we'd have had an even hand in those three games Forest would now be 5th in the table. (And this is ignoring the blatant hand ball at Leeds United.)
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| What If Analysis |
Anyway, my dream of Forest going up this season certainly is not looking as good as it was this time last week. And Martin's record in the all-time forest manager's league is not bubbling up towards the top yet as I'd anticipated.
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| All-time Forest manager's table, after eleven games in charge |
Still, there are still eight games to go and we're only three points off the top six. If Forest can just get a bit of form going and win a couple, things could change very quickly.
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