40 years ago, the tricky trees were back in league action at our big local rivals, Derby County, after a bit of light relief in the F.A. Cup 3rd round, beating Swindon Town 4-1. We'd given Derby a good thrashing in Nottingham earlier, 3-0, in our second home match of the season, but Derby's form had been good lately, so this wasn't going to be easy.
Before going to the ram-shackled old Baseball Ground though, I thought I'd have a look at a few related subjects. What is a "local derby" and where did the term come from? Forest and Derby have one of the fiercest rivalries in English football and this kind of tribalism has always interested me. I'll look at the phenomenon through an anthropologist's eye. I'll also take a look at the Derby's original ground, their history, and of course I have to catch a quick glimpse of Cloughie & Taylor's time there and try to answer a sad comment from Peter Taylor about the relative merits of Nottingham and Derby.
Although other claims exist, it would seem that the origin of the term "local derby" simply was another way of saying a "local sporting contest". This is because one of the first major sporting contests in England was the famous horse race with that name, started by the Edward Smith-Stanley, 12th Earl of Derby in 1780. Again it was nothing to do with the city, it was just the title of an English peerage that started in 1139. Apparently, the Earl of Derby tossed a coin for the right to name that race with Sir Charles Bunbury. We know who won but I don't think a "local Bunbury" would have caught on anyway. So, since 1840 a 'derby' has been used as a noun to denote any kind of sporting contest and from that, it has been used most often in football to mean a local match.
Almost every club has at least one local derby. Forest have the most local of local derbies in England when they play Notts County, whose ground is only just over 200 meters away across the river Trent. As Notts County are the oldest league club, Forest are probably the 2nd oldest, and they certainly are the two closest league clubs, the Nottingham derby perhaps should be given more prominence than it tends to get.
Here's the oldest clip (1953) I could find for a Forest v County game on You Tube.
The title of the oldest football local derby, however, must go to Sheffield F.C. v Hallam F.C. when they met in a Boxing Day match in 1860.
All over Britain there are similar local rivalries. It's a favourite topic of conversation among football fans as to which is the most fierce. To Forest fans, it's difficult to imagine that any team's supporters could share that same feeling of intestinal disgust as we do towards Derby County, but it must be true. If you ask Professor Google, you'll find several attempts have been made to rank them in some order of feisty passion.
Here's a list of 26 English local derbies. At first I sorted them on nothing more than 48 years of following football and judging from the vibe I get from fans, but soon realised that this was totally subjective. Then I had the idea (inspired by the latest edition of When Saturday Comes - WSC) of sorting them on the number of times they'd played or when they last played until I realised that the 11v11 web site, where I get most of my match data from, seems to have had its data entered by a Liverpool (or Everton) fanatic as it includes at least 60-70 games that can hardly be classified as properly competitive (War leagues etc.) I didn't have time to filter the data properly so I decided, in the end, to sort them simply by the date of first match played. It's as good as anything and, at least it means Forest and County come out on top!
I was genuinely surprised how many times Spurs and Arsenal had played each other and the Spurs v West Ham clash is the 3rd most played of all. At the other end of the spectrum is the Potteries derby which, despite Stoke City and Port Vale's long histories, has only been contested 52 times. They are just rarely in each other's division and haven't played against each other for 16 years already. As the WSC article pointed out, they probably won't play each other for a long time to come but it won't stop their fans hating each other. Stoke fans must have confused the hell out of all the visiting Manchester United fans from abroad recently at Old Trafford with various chants boasting about their hatred of "Vale".
The Forest v County derby was always a friendly affair in the 1970s, although I grew to hate Notts for the way that they always seemed to have a jinx on us, especially at the City Ground. It seemed to me that the two clubs are so close geographically, that our fans tend to all know each other and so have to talk rather than get aggressive.
I want to look at this local tribalism a bit more but first, just a note on the opposite of a local derby, a "distance" derby...
My local club here in Australia, Perth Glory now have two annual "A-League" matches (sometimes three) with a team that play in Wellington, New Zealand. It's called the "distance derby" because the two clubs are 5,255 km away from each other.
However ridiculously long this might seem, it is nowhere near the longest away trip for a domestic league in the world. There's one almost double that distance.
Where would that be? Russia, of course.
In the Russian second tier there are teams spread right across Russia's vast land mass. One team (Luch) plays in Vladivostok in the east and another in the extreme west, in Kaliningrad (formerly Koenigsburg), Baltika.
Amazingly, some fans actually travel to such away games!
Anyway, distance is clearly a key factor in the passion of football rivalries. Too close and it all seems to get quite pally, as you will know many of the opposition fans and you are likely to be friends with some of them. Too far away and they become just another team. Of all the possible factors to despise them, being the local top dogs isn't one of them.
Nottingham and Derby, like Newcastle and Sunderland, seem to be the optimal distance for maximum rivalry at around 20 km. Although Man Utd and Liverpool and Man Utd and Leeds are further apart, you have to factor in the baseline hatred most (non United) fans seem to have for Man U and Leeds. Leicester, being twice as far away, don't quite seem to generate the same amount of rivalry as Derby.
Anyway, I've always thought this local derby phenomenon, and fans' passion generally, is really fascinating and that interest was really ignited when I came across a great book by the Zoologist turned anthropologist, Desmond Morris.
I have to admit I first came across Desmond Morris' book "Soccer Tribes" when I saw it on a bookshelf at my first girlfriend's house. She kindly lent it to me and I quickly read it but really wanted it as a handy reference, so I kept it. After going out with her for about two years we drifted apart as I was teaching near Doncaster while she was still doing the student thing in Nottingham. I thought I'd got away with the Soccer Tribes but she wanted it back. So I had to buy my own copy from eBay.
This book was a revelation to me. I've always had a leaning towards science and statistics and since 1970 I was football mad. Standing in the Trent End or along the Main Stand with friends like Ian White, Tim Kilbride and Gary Kelly we often made fun of some of the more moronic chants that were sung and sometimes sang along with them with mock macho-aggressive, pretend neanderthal, voices.
Anyway, here was a book that seemed to be written for me. Desmond Morris had not only observed the same kind of stuff, as an Oxford United fan, as we had - but as a scientist he was able to document and categorise these kinds of behaviours, analyse them and go a long way to understanding them. It certainly sparked an interest in me in the subject of anthropology, a subject I'd eventually study myself to Ph.D. level. (Ironically, Morris also provided the spark for the specific area of study too. Through his book 'The Naked Ape' I got into the so-called "aquatic ape" hypothesis.)
Anyway, in a nutshell, the key word about all this is there in the title - "TRIBES". Being part of a group of football fans, singing together in unison seems to fulfill an ancient human need for a groupish tribal belonging. And if you have a distinct feeling of "us" then it's only natural to need to have some other group who are the hated "them". Even the most intelligent, enlightened Spurs fan will always hate Arsenal and vice versa. It seems to come with the territory. If you support club A, you must also hate anti-A and sometimes it gets very nasty.
I must say, I draw the line long before it gets anywhere near violence. I've never had a fight in my life and I'm not going to start now. It really scares me that some people take the game so seriously and are so imbibed into the gang-like tribalism that they feel strongly urged to physically hurt a fan supporting the opposition. "You're going to get you're F&CK#NG heads kicked in!" was one of the most common chants heard on the terraces in the 70s. Of course in some parts of the world this kind of violence has even resulted in deaths.
But some of the more humorous, less violent-threatening, banter songs are irresistible to join in with. My favourite anti-Derby song is the old classic. It's one of those where the end of one verse naturally leads you into singing it again, and again and again... Sung to the tune of ... (anyone know)?
Other songs are simplistic in the extreme but strangely catchy when you're in the Trent End with thousands of others... Is this even a tune?
Did you notice that last line? The jibe here is that Derby fans are apparently into a specific form
of bestiality, involving the species Ovis aries. I guess the idea for this slur comes from the fact that Derby's nickname, badge etc is The Ram and some vague notion that up in the Derbyshire dales, there are a lot of sheep farms.
They bring it on themselves, right?
Before going to the ram-shackled old Baseball Ground though, I thought I'd have a look at a few related subjects. What is a "local derby" and where did the term come from? Forest and Derby have one of the fiercest rivalries in English football and this kind of tribalism has always interested me. I'll look at the phenomenon through an anthropologist's eye. I'll also take a look at the Derby's original ground, their history, and of course I have to catch a quick glimpse of Cloughie & Taylor's time there and try to answer a sad comment from Peter Taylor about the relative merits of Nottingham and Derby.
Why is a derby called a derby?
Firstly, it's nothing to do with Derby County.Although other claims exist, it would seem that the origin of the term "local derby" simply was another way of saying a "local sporting contest". This is because one of the first major sporting contests in England was the famous horse race with that name, started by the Edward Smith-Stanley, 12th Earl of Derby in 1780. Again it was nothing to do with the city, it was just the title of an English peerage that started in 1139. Apparently, the Earl of Derby tossed a coin for the right to name that race with Sir Charles Bunbury. We know who won but I don't think a "local Bunbury" would have caught on anyway. So, since 1840 a 'derby' has been used as a noun to denote any kind of sporting contest and from that, it has been used most often in football to mean a local match.
Almost every club has at least one local derby. Forest have the most local of local derbies in England when they play Notts County, whose ground is only just over 200 meters away across the river Trent. As Notts County are the oldest league club, Forest are probably the 2nd oldest, and they certainly are the two closest league clubs, the Nottingham derby perhaps should be given more prominence than it tends to get.
Here's the oldest clip (1953) I could find for a Forest v County game on You Tube.
The title of the oldest football local derby, however, must go to Sheffield F.C. v Hallam F.C. when they met in a Boxing Day match in 1860.
All over Britain there are similar local rivalries. It's a favourite topic of conversation among football fans as to which is the most fierce. To Forest fans, it's difficult to imagine that any team's supporters could share that same feeling of intestinal disgust as we do towards Derby County, but it must be true. If you ask Professor Google, you'll find several attempts have been made to rank them in some order of feisty passion.
Here's a list of 26 English local derbies. At first I sorted them on nothing more than 48 years of following football and judging from the vibe I get from fans, but soon realised that this was totally subjective. Then I had the idea (inspired by the latest edition of When Saturday Comes - WSC) of sorting them on the number of times they'd played or when they last played until I realised that the 11v11 web site, where I get most of my match data from, seems to have had its data entered by a Liverpool (or Everton) fanatic as it includes at least 60-70 games that can hardly be classified as properly competitive (War leagues etc.) I didn't have time to filter the data properly so I decided, in the end, to sort them simply by the date of first match played. It's as good as anything and, at least it means Forest and County come out on top!
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| Oldest English Local derbies |
The Forest v County derby was always a friendly affair in the 1970s, although I grew to hate Notts for the way that they always seemed to have a jinx on us, especially at the City Ground. It seemed to me that the two clubs are so close geographically, that our fans tend to all know each other and so have to talk rather than get aggressive.
I want to look at this local tribalism a bit more but first, just a note on the opposite of a local derby, a "distance" derby...
My local club here in Australia, Perth Glory now have two annual "A-League" matches (sometimes three) with a team that play in Wellington, New Zealand. It's called the "distance derby" because the two clubs are 5,255 km away from each other.
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| Current A-League Table |
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| Wellington Phoenix's away trip to Perth Glory is 5,255 km away |
However ridiculously long this might seem, it is nowhere near the longest away trip for a domestic league in the world. There's one almost double that distance.
Where would that be? Russia, of course.
In the Russian second tier there are teams spread right across Russia's vast land mass. One team (Luch) plays in Vladivostok in the east and another in the extreme west, in Kaliningrad (formerly Koenigsburg), Baltika.
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| Luch Vladivostok's away trip to Baltika Kaliningrad is 10,366 km away! |
Amazingly, some fans actually travel to such away games!
Anyway, distance is clearly a key factor in the passion of football rivalries. Too close and it all seems to get quite pally, as you will know many of the opposition fans and you are likely to be friends with some of them. Too far away and they become just another team. Of all the possible factors to despise them, being the local top dogs isn't one of them.
Nottingham and Derby, like Newcastle and Sunderland, seem to be the optimal distance for maximum rivalry at around 20 km. Although Man Utd and Liverpool and Man Utd and Leeds are further apart, you have to factor in the baseline hatred most (non United) fans seem to have for Man U and Leeds. Leicester, being twice as far away, don't quite seem to generate the same amount of rivalry as Derby.
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| 26 km between Nottingham and Derby |
Anyway, I've always thought this local derby phenomenon, and fans' passion generally, is really fascinating and that interest was really ignited when I came across a great book by the Zoologist turned anthropologist, Desmond Morris.
The anthropology of local rivalry in football
I have to admit I first came across Desmond Morris' book "Soccer Tribes" when I saw it on a bookshelf at my first girlfriend's house. She kindly lent it to me and I quickly read it but really wanted it as a handy reference, so I kept it. After going out with her for about two years we drifted apart as I was teaching near Doncaster while she was still doing the student thing in Nottingham. I thought I'd got away with the Soccer Tribes but she wanted it back. So I had to buy my own copy from eBay. |
| Desmond Morris' eye-opening book |
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| Desmond Morris |
Anyway, in a nutshell, the key word about all this is there in the title - "TRIBES". Being part of a group of football fans, singing together in unison seems to fulfill an ancient human need for a groupish tribal belonging. And if you have a distinct feeling of "us" then it's only natural to need to have some other group who are the hated "them". Even the most intelligent, enlightened Spurs fan will always hate Arsenal and vice versa. It seems to come with the territory. If you support club A, you must also hate anti-A and sometimes it gets very nasty.
I must say, I draw the line long before it gets anywhere near violence. I've never had a fight in my life and I'm not going to start now. It really scares me that some people take the game so seriously and are so imbibed into the gang-like tribalism that they feel strongly urged to physically hurt a fan supporting the opposition. "You're going to get you're F&CK#NG heads kicked in!" was one of the most common chants heard on the terraces in the 70s. Of course in some parts of the world this kind of violence has even resulted in deaths.
But some of the more humorous, less violent-threatening, banter songs are irresistible to join in with. My favourite anti-Derby song is the old classic. It's one of those where the end of one verse naturally leads you into singing it again, and again and again... Sung to the tune of ... (anyone know)?
Again and again and again and again, we'll sing, we'll sing
Again and again and again and again, we'll sing, we'll sing
When Ian Moore scores a goal,
you can shove your Hector up your hole
And we'll all go mad when Derby go down again!
Other songs are simplistic in the extreme but strangely catchy when you're in the Trent End with thousands of others... Is this even a tune?
We Hate Derby and We Hate Derby
We Hate Derby and We Hate Derby
We Hate Derby and We Hate Derby
We are the Derby Haters!
Sheep, Sheep, Sheep Sh&gg*rs!
They bring it on themselves, right?
It's always struck me as a particularly mindless taunt. I mean, seriously? Does anyone really think that a higher fraction of Derby fans are sheep farmers than any other club, say Forest? And what percentage might this be? According to the NSA (The National Sheep Association) there are 34,000 people employed in the "sheep sector". This is for the whole of the UK. Let's assume that not one sheep farmer lives in Notts but, in fact, they all live in Derbyshire. Even then only just a little over of 3% of "Derbyshire folk" would be sheep farmers. Assuming the average attendance at Derby is comprised of random people from the whole of Derbyshire, and not a concentration of town dwellers (who tend not to be sheep farmers) that means around 800 or so Derby fans would "in the sheep sector". Even if every single sheep farmer was a male and into bestiality of his flock - rather unlikely, I'd say - that still means that this taunt would be aimed at a tiny fraction of Derby fans.
Of course, it's not meant seriously - is it? It's just a coincidence that any team, or nation, associated with sheep farming gets this thrown at them. Wales and Welsh clubs is a familiar example to most English fans, but going by sheep farm density perhaps Carlisle United and Plymouth Argyles fans should also be targeted.
Elsewhere Mansfield Town's slide towards relegation continued as they lost 2-1 at the Dell against Southampton and Spurs fought out a 3-3 draw at the original "Lane" against Notts County.
I got a weird sense of deja vu the first time I watched Perth Glory play a team from New Zealand. There seems to be a very familiar preoccupation among home fans to the idea that away supporters might be sexually attracted to sheep here in Australia too.
Personally, apart from an easy source of mild amusement I do find it all a bit sad. Can't we raise the game a bit, chaps?
Certainly, when it comes to Derby County, it does seem to take a little more effort to be civil and pleasant to their fans than with most other clubs' fans. It certainly helps when you're away from your home territory. Here in Perth I've met a couple of Derby fans who actually seem quite normal.
On the topic of living in Perth, since arriving here in 2003 I started to get into AFL. I was drawn into a similar, if somewhat contrived, rivalry between West Coast Eagles and Fremantle Dockers. As an outsider I can't honestly feel the same kind of animosity as the locals undoubtedly do. I am a Dockers fan but I have no problem with Eagles doing well. Maybe this will change over time!
Generally though, it feels as if there is some kind of groupish peer pressure not to be friendly with "the enemy" when you're within your own group, a pressure that disappears when you're on your own.
In terms of measuring loyalty, there's a comparison which I often think is apt. Consider how often men (usually) and women are unfaithful to their partners - maybe tempted by a "bit on the side" or a fleeting fancy - and then consider applying the same concept to football fans. It's simply unimaginable that a Forest fan, for example, might even think for a second, of pretending to be a Derby fan even if his anonymity was assured.
This discussion could get really heavy now, considering concepts like group selection in human evolution and the like, but I won't go there. Time to get back to football!
The ground was located right next to the iron-works in the middle of row upon row of terraced housing making it very difficult to expand outwards. The only way to increase capacity was to build the stands UP.
This resulted in the Baseball Ground having a notorious atmosphere with all the fans positioned close to the action. At the very front, not an inch of space was wasted and the terracing stepped below the surface of the pitch. The first time I went there, as a 14 year old, I watched pretty much from the front and got a "worm's eye" view of the action.
The ground improved most markedly in 1969, under the influence of that management pair, with the building of the aptly named Ley Stand which was quite impressive for its time. We sat in the Ley stand the for this match and I have to say I got an excellent view from there.
From 1969-70 until now, Derby were back as top dogs in the East Midlands. They won the league twice and had an average league placing 13 better than ours. So, there's the equaliser - Derby 2 Forest 2.
It has to be conceded that Cloughie and Taylor built an incredibly good side, for relatively little money at Derby and few would doubt that this period of success would have carried on for years if Brian Clough hadn't been so determined to run the club and his life in exactly the way he wanted with no regard for the club owner Sam Longson or anyone else.
Derby's success hurt Forest, especially, as their championship winning side included two ex-Forest players, Terry Hennesy and Alan Hinton. It could have been worse though. They had tried to sign Henry Newton earlier too but Forest made sure he didn't go there, but to Everton. The salt would have most certainly been rubbed in Forest's relegation wounds if the gem of our side, Ian Storey-Moore had joined Derby County as well. It almost did happen.
Ian Moore was pretty much on his way to join Manchester United when Brian Clough managed to persuade him to join Derby instead in March 1972. Clough's argument: 'why join a side in the process of rebuilding when you can complete the set here - and win the league?' won him over. Frank O'Farrell, the United manager, was furious that he'd been gazumped and called the Forest board who were, understandably, keen to help. The two parties managed to find a small error in the Derby transfer registration documents. Forest club secretary, Ken Smales hadn't actually signed the contract and so, with F. A. backing, the signing was halted. Despite triumphantly being paraded to Derby fans on 4th March before their home tie v Wolves, Moore ended up joining Manchester United instead - hardly better for Forest, but there was at least a small crumb of comfort to us that our hero hadn't joined "the enemy".
At the time Forest fans naturally blamed Derby. We felt aggrieved that they were "always nicking our best players" but is it really their fault? I must say I've always thought that more blame should be laid with the footballer himself here. What was Ian thinking? How better to erase all those years of adulation in five minutes and replace them with greed-fed bitterness? Where's the loyalty of these players? - It's a very rare commodity.
In the end, Moore must have regretted moving to Manchester United. He missed out on Derby's league championship and although he scored on his debut (a 2-0 win at home to Huddersfield, George Best got the other) and three in his first three games and ended the season on 5 goals from 11 games, it soon all went pear-shaped for Moore at Old Trafford. He ended up only making another 28 appearances for United before injury cut his career short.
So ended a terrible season for Forest: We were relegated whilst Derby won their first ever league title. It doesn't get much worse!
It is incredible that just 17 months after winning the league title with Derby, Clough and Taylor were gone. Old Big 'Ed had ruffled his last feather at Derby and Longson & Co accepted his resignation.
So, one has to ask, how good was Cloughie & Taylor's record at Derby? Of course the answer that comes to the tip of your tongue immediately is "brilliant", but was it really that good? I mean, compared to Matt Busby, Bill Shankly and Don Revie - how does their record compare?
Clearly, they foolishly left too soon. If they hadn't resigned due to petty vanity they could have built a strong legacy at Derby, up there with the greats but unfortunately it wasn't to be. Nowhere near.
In terms of longevity, games played etc it's by far the worst, as they were only at the club six years. But even taking this into account, their %age points/game ratio is also the worst of the four as is their record of trophies per season. In only one measure are Clough/Taylor the best of this bunch - the difference made to Derby's league position. They inherited a side in 17th place in Division Two and left them 3rd in the top flight.
Anyway, this was the end of an era for Derby... but soon to be the start of a new one for Forest.
For three years running, Derby were the 3rd best English team over a three year period. So, 1971-1974, 1972-1975 and 1973-76. It has never got better for Derby since then.
... although, to be fair, they did have a very early 3 year period when they were the 2nd best team from 1895 until 1897.
But this would be Derby's last hurrah. As Clough & Taylor's influence on the squad faded, so did their success. Dave Mackay moved on in November 1976 and was replaced by Colin Murphy but the magic had long gone by then and the season before this (1977-78) one, Derby had struggled in 15th place.
Earlier in this season Murphy was sacked and replaced by Tommy Docherty and Derby had had an upturn in fortunes. By the time this game was played on 14th January 1978 Derby were mid table and were 6th in the current form table. This wasn't going to be an easy game.
Before going to the match though, I feel compelled to challenge Peter Taylor's sad conclusion that Derby, and not Nottingham, is the "real football town."
First of all, historically, Nottingham had two football clubs, years before Derby had any. Notts County were formed in 1862, Forest in 1865. Derby Midland, the first club in Derby, were formed in 1881 and County in 1884. So for at least 16 years Nottingham was a pioneering football town whilst Derby wasn't any kind.
Derby Midland existed for ten years between 1881 and 1891 before they were gobbled up by Derby County. (Unfortunately, even in that brief time they managed beat Forest once in the F. A. Cup, 3-0 on 18th Jan 1890). So, whereas for the past 137 years Derby pretty much had only one football club, Nottingham has had two for 153 years. Consequently Nottingham has hosted more than twice as many (over 5,500) professional competitive football matches as Derby.
If this simple fact doesn't make Nottingham more of a football town than Derby, I don't know what does.
Furthermore, another test is to ask the question: which city has more football fans? Derby County today are very well supported, even better than Forest, I must admit. But let's not forget Notts County. If you combine the attendances of Forest and Notts County, even in the years up to 1978, Derby's best period in their history (and a comparatively bad time for the Nottingham clubs), Nottingham still comes out on top. At earlier times, or more recent ones, this (4%) gap is even more in Nottingham's favour.
Before the Clough & Taylor arrived at Derby, Nottingham clubs had won three major trophies (all F.A. Cups), Derby just one.
Sorry, Peter. We will always be grateful to you but I rest my case. I think you were wrong to write that.
Ian Wallace grabbed a goal and Bob Latchford didn't, so the gap in the top scorers race closed to four too.
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| It's amazing, but some Derby fans are ok. |
On the topic of living in Perth, since arriving here in 2003 I started to get into AFL. I was drawn into a similar, if somewhat contrived, rivalry between West Coast Eagles and Fremantle Dockers. As an outsider I can't honestly feel the same kind of animosity as the locals undoubtedly do. I am a Dockers fan but I have no problem with Eagles doing well. Maybe this will change over time!
Generally though, it feels as if there is some kind of groupish peer pressure not to be friendly with "the enemy" when you're within your own group, a pressure that disappears when you're on your own.
This discussion could get really heavy now, considering concepts like group selection in human evolution and the like, but I won't go there. Time to get back to football!
The Baseball Ground
Anyway, this was my first Forest v Derby derby match at the Baseball Ground, having been there twice before to watch first division football (v Leeds and v Liverpool) when Forest were in the second division.
Unless you are well versed in these matters the name of Derby County's ground might have come as a bit of a surprise. It certainly was a topic of confusion and derision for me, for years.
Baseball? That's what Americans play, isn't it? Kind of "Rounders" but for grown men. I must admit to being pretty ignorant about the sport but let's not let ignorance get in the way of a bit of heart felt revulsion. I've debated this several times with some of my very solidly English football mates, and it always comes down to a comparison with cricket. I have to say it always baffles me how any cricket lover can tolerate the yankee slogging sport. I love the complexity and strange eccentricities of cricket. Introducing such rich language like "Silly Point", "Bowling a Maiden" and "sending in a night watchman to prod out 'till stumps" make it a thing of beauty on its own. Cricket is just a superior sport. The variations in ways to bowl (rather than everything being a full toss), the fact that there is something to bowl at (some stumps rather than a glorified 'keeper). The very shape of the bat means that "middling it" means something - in baseball it's just one long rounded edge. Instead of the vast repertoire of cricket strokes one can play baseball "batting" is just a slogfest. And there are so many ways of getting out in cricket compared to baseball. It all just makes it intellectually more satisfying.
But anyway, back to football and Derby and the truly bizarre fact that the club started out playing at the same ground as a baseball team, hence the name of the ground. It all started by the club owner Sir Frances Ley (not Francis Lee) who ran an Iron-works next door and wanted to introduce baseball to the UK.
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| Derby's original baseball club |
Meanwhile, across town, a proper club for a bat and ball sport, Derbyshire Cricket club, attendances were falling and one of the sons of their committee called William Morley had the idea of starting a football club. It was going to be called Derbyshire County F. C. but the local F. A. objected so the name was shortened. Despite the baseball club going extinct in 1898, their ground continued to be used by the football club and would be the home of Derby County for 102 years from 1895. It's funny how things happen.
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| Doesn't look much like a baseball ground in 1921, does it? |
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| Characteristic "boxed in" atmosphere was developing by the 1950s |
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| Fans were stacked on top of each other and those at the front had a "worm's eye" view |
The ground improved most markedly in 1969, under the influence of that management pair, with the building of the aptly named Ley Stand which was quite impressive for its time. We sat in the Ley stand the for this match and I have to say I got an excellent view from there.
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| The Ley Stand gave a semblance of modernity but look at the strangely sloping terrace underneath! |
An Historical Comparison - Derby 2 Forest 2
So, during most of the history of Derby County, as the Baseball Ground was developing, Forest were competing with them from just 15 or so miles away.
Again, it's frustrating for us that Forest, despite being formed 19 years before Derby, only joined the football league four seasons after they did, Derby being one of the original 12 members.
Who do I complain to?
But Forest had the last laugh in this period as we beat them 3-1 in the F.A. Cup final of 1898-1899.
Who do I complain to?
But Forest had the last laugh in this period as we beat them 3-1 in the F.A. Cup final of 1898-1899.
For the first dozen seasons of co-existence in the league, Forest and Derby toed and froed as first division sides with neither team dominating for more than two seasons on the trot.
When Derby got relegated in 1907 Forest had a four year period of domination but that was reciprocated by a similar period of domination until it was ended by the start of the first world war.
So in the 27 year period up to the start of the first world war, Derby had done slightly better than us in the league (runners-up twice and 3rd place once and an average position two better) but Forest's F.A. Cup win, especially as it was a 3-1 over Derby themselves, surely gives us the first set. 1-0 to Forest!
The 21 years between the wars were a very dull and uninspiring time for Forest and the less said about them the better. Apart from a brief four season patch between 1921 and 1925, it was all Derby. They largely spent the period in the first division, we in the second. Neither club won any trophy but on league dominance alone, (Derby finished an average of 20 places higher than Forest between the wars) you have to concede this period to Derby. 1-1.
Because of the importance of a certain management team, I'm going to split the post-war period into two: The period "B.C." from 1944 to 1968, when Forest and Derby competed fairly without the influence of "Football Gods", and the second period "A.D." (Accept Defeat) when Clough and Taylor took Derby to a different level. B.C. is 21 years, A.D. is just 10, but you have to try to be fair.
If you look at the post-war period, B.C., Derby dominated for the first seven years. They also won the F.A. Cup in the first Wembley final after the war, beating Charlton Athletic 4-1 under the management of Stuart McMillan but then the Rams slumped and got relegated to the same second division Forest were still languishing in.
Derby, under the management of Jack Barker, teetered on the verge of relegation to the third tier and then succumbed in 1954-55, spending two years in Division Three North - in a very similar way to what had happened to Forest six years earlier - but, for us it was to Division Three South.
When Derby were relegated to the third tier they sacked Barker and employed Harry Storer, who had won promotion with Coventry and Birmingham - the manager Clough & Taylor attribute their success to. Whilst he was rebuilding the side to get the club back out of the third tier, Forest also begin to thrive under the management of Billy Walker. Storer couldn't take Derby any further though and retired in 1962. Thus, from 1953, for the next 14 years Forest would finish above Derby. Forest won the F.A. Cup for the second time in 1959 and almost won the double in 1967. For this period, Forest had an average league placing five higher than Derby and even though both clubs won one major trophy, I have to give this period to Forest. 2-1 to the tricky trees!
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| Derby County, F.A. Cup Winners for the only time in 1946 |
When Derby were relegated to the third tier they sacked Barker and employed Harry Storer, who had won promotion with Coventry and Birmingham - the manager Clough & Taylor attribute their success to. Whilst he was rebuilding the side to get the club back out of the third tier, Forest also begin to thrive under the management of Billy Walker. Storer couldn't take Derby any further though and retired in 1962. Thus, from 1953, for the next 14 years Forest would finish above Derby. Forest won the F.A. Cup for the second time in 1959 and almost won the double in 1967. For this period, Forest had an average league placing five higher than Derby and even though both clubs won one major trophy, I have to give this period to Forest. 2-1 to the tricky trees!
Then, in June 1967, Derby made the best decision they'd ever make, signing two gentlemen who need no introduction and were about to turn history around again.
So, here's a question for you:
Who was the Derby manager before Brian Clough & Peter Taylor took over?
This is the man...
Tim Ward didn't do all that badly. He managed the club for 5 years, for 219 games altogether, but with Derby 17th place, the board wanted someone new and fresh faced. They certainly got that!
As they say, Rome wasn't built in a day and even Brian Clough and Peter Taylor took some time to build their sides. In their first full season in charge, Derby went backwards, flirted with relegation and finished 18th in the second division whilst Forest were mid-table in the first, 29 places above them. But the writing was on the wall and the next season Derby won the second division as Forest declined and flirted with relegation themselves.
So, here's a question for you:
Who was the Derby manager before Brian Clough & Peter Taylor took over?
This is the man...
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| Tim Ward - the Derby manager in times B.C. |
As they say, Rome wasn't built in a day and even Brian Clough and Peter Taylor took some time to build their sides. In their first full season in charge, Derby went backwards, flirted with relegation and finished 18th in the second division whilst Forest were mid-table in the first, 29 places above them. But the writing was on the wall and the next season Derby won the second division as Forest declined and flirted with relegation themselves.
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| Derby back in the top flight |
Brian Clough and Peter Taylor
So much has been written about these two and their very successful time at Derby that I'm not going to add much here except to share a few little thoughts, a statistical fact or or two and some images I've managed to find.
Clough and Taylor were appointed on Monday, 5th June 1967 and managed Derby County together until they famously resigned on Monday, 15th October 1973. Although it's not something you might naturally consider, this was actually a longer (195 days more) period of time than the two managed together at Forest. 6.36 years versus 5.83 years, 9.7% longer. Of course, Cloughie managed alone at Forest for another 11 years after Taylor left and had managed for a year and a half before Taylor came. It's ironic because Peter Taylor was born in Nottingham so you'd think he'd be the one with a greater affinity for the city. In fact, he seemed to have fallen in love with Derby and/or out of love with Nottingham. More on that, in a bit.
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| Two smart young gentlemen arrive at the Baseball Ground |
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| Cloughie relaxed at his new club |
Derby's success hurt Forest, especially, as their championship winning side included two ex-Forest players, Terry Hennesy and Alan Hinton. It could have been worse though. They had tried to sign Henry Newton earlier too but Forest made sure he didn't go there, but to Everton. The salt would have most certainly been rubbed in Forest's relegation wounds if the gem of our side, Ian Storey-Moore had joined Derby County as well. It almost did happen.
Ian Moore was pretty much on his way to join Manchester United when Brian Clough managed to persuade him to join Derby instead in March 1972. Clough's argument: 'why join a side in the process of rebuilding when you can complete the set here - and win the league?' won him over. Frank O'Farrell, the United manager, was furious that he'd been gazumped and called the Forest board who were, understandably, keen to help. The two parties managed to find a small error in the Derby transfer registration documents. Forest club secretary, Ken Smales hadn't actually signed the contract and so, with F. A. backing, the signing was halted. Despite triumphantly being paraded to Derby fans on 4th March before their home tie v Wolves, Moore ended up joining Manchester United instead - hardly better for Forest, but there was at least a small crumb of comfort to us that our hero hadn't joined "the enemy".
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| Ian Storey-Moore paraded as a Derby player on 4th March 1972 - but Derby were a bit "previous" |
In the end, Moore must have regretted moving to Manchester United. He missed out on Derby's league championship and although he scored on his debut (a 2-0 win at home to Huddersfield, George Best got the other) and three in his first three games and ended the season on 5 goals from 11 games, it soon all went pear-shaped for Moore at Old Trafford. He ended up only making another 28 appearances for United before injury cut his career short.
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| Derby County, First Division Champions for the 1st time 1971-72 |
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| A league table doesn't get much worse than this for Forest fans |
So ended a terrible season for Forest: We were relegated whilst Derby won their first ever league title. It doesn't get much worse!
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| Relaxed is the word |
So, one has to ask, how good was Cloughie & Taylor's record at Derby? Of course the answer that comes to the tip of your tongue immediately is "brilliant", but was it really that good? I mean, compared to Matt Busby, Bill Shankly and Don Revie - how does their record compare?
Clearly, they foolishly left too soon. If they hadn't resigned due to petty vanity they could have built a strong legacy at Derby, up there with the greats but unfortunately it wasn't to be. Nowhere near.
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| Clough/Taylor at Derby - easily 4th place in this group |
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| A52 Renamed in Tribute |
They are quite rightly revered at both Derby and Nottingham today. The A52, the main road joining the two cities, has been renamed the "Brian Clough Way" and both have statues and other tributes to the great men.
I can't help but throw in a bit of contrary realism in here, though it gives me no pleasure to do so. I have to report that I was really disappointed to read in Peter Taylor's book that he certainly seemed to have lost any love for Nottingham and became a Derby man.
This is what he wrote on page 67 of his book "With Clough by Taylor" talking about an approach to go back to Derby from their new chairman, George Hardy ...
Perhaps this is why Forest's "Executive Stand" was renamed "The Brian Clough" stand and not the "Clough and Taylor" stand.
It's a commonly agreed, though, that Peter Taylor didn't get the credit he deserved and that Clough always got the limelight and the most money. At least at Pride Park, Derby's new ground, they have paid a fitting tribute to both men, with a lovely statue of them together holding the championship trophy.
Well done to Derby County, there!
This is what he wrote on page 67 of his book "With Clough by Taylor" talking about an approach to go back to Derby from their new chairman, George Hardy ...
"I was interested in Derby's approach because the Baseball Ground has always appealed to me. Nottingham is my birthplace but I feel more at home in Derby, a real football town."
Peter, how could you?
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| Me and Cloughie at Speakers Corner |
It's a commonly agreed, though, that Peter Taylor didn't get the credit he deserved and that Clough always got the limelight and the most money. At least at Pride Park, Derby's new ground, they have paid a fitting tribute to both men, with a lovely statue of them together holding the championship trophy.
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| Clough & Taylor Statue @ Pride Park |
Well done to Derby County, there!
Derby after Clough & Taylor
After the turmoil all settled down following Cloughie & Taylor's departure, things got back on track for Derby County and Dave Mackay, inheriting the very good squad built by his predecessor, even managed to win Derby's second league title in 1975. |
| Dave Mackay wins the league with Derby in 1975 |
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| Derby at the pinnacle. All downhill from here. |
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| One of Derby's Best three-year spells |
... although, to be fair, they did have a very early 3 year period when they were the 2nd best team from 1895 until 1897.
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| Derby's best ever three year spell, 1896-1898 |
But this would be Derby's last hurrah. As Clough & Taylor's influence on the squad faded, so did their success. Dave Mackay moved on in November 1976 and was replaced by Colin Murphy but the magic had long gone by then and the season before this (1977-78) one, Derby had struggled in 15th place.
Earlier in this season Murphy was sacked and replaced by Tommy Docherty and Derby had had an upturn in fortunes. By the time this game was played on 14th January 1978 Derby were mid table and were 6th in the current form table. This wasn't going to be an easy game.
So which really is "a real football town", Peter? Nottingham or Derby?
First of all, historically, Nottingham had two football clubs, years before Derby had any. Notts County were formed in 1862, Forest in 1865. Derby Midland, the first club in Derby, were formed in 1881 and County in 1884. So for at least 16 years Nottingham was a pioneering football town whilst Derby wasn't any kind.
Derby Midland existed for ten years between 1881 and 1891 before they were gobbled up by Derby County. (Unfortunately, even in that brief time they managed beat Forest once in the F. A. Cup, 3-0 on 18th Jan 1890). So, whereas for the past 137 years Derby pretty much had only one football club, Nottingham has had two for 153 years. Consequently Nottingham has hosted more than twice as many (over 5,500) professional competitive football matches as Derby.
If this simple fact doesn't make Nottingham more of a football town than Derby, I don't know what does.
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| Derby Midland F. C. 1881-1891 |
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| Football league attendances in Nottingham were 4% higher than Derby during a period of comparative success for the Rams |
Before the Clough & Taylor arrived at Derby, Nottingham clubs had won three major trophies (all F.A. Cups), Derby just one.
Sorry, Peter. We will always be grateful to you but I rest my case. I think you were wrong to write that.
The Teams
So to the match. Forest were unchanged for the seventh match on the trot.
Derby made three changes. Center back David Hunt made way for left back Steve Buckley (brother of Alan, the ex Forest striker), making his Derby debut after being signed from Luton Town, with Peter Daniel switching from that position to the center. Gerry Ryan came back into the side for Paul Bartlett and Bruce Rioch came in for Steve Powell who went onto the subs bench.
Derby had an impressive-looking side with Colin Todd at the back, a midfield containing Bruce Rioch, a recent signing from Everton, and Don Masson and an attacking threat including Charlie George and our old favourite from 1975, Terry Curran.
We mustn't forget, too, the return of good old John Middleton, traded with some cash to Derby for Archie Gemmill after the arrival of Peter Shilton earlier in the season.
So the big question was: Was Tommy Docherty the one to burst Forest's "bubble"? A subject I pondered on with this cartoon...
Derby County
1 John Middleton, 2 David Langan, 3 Steve Buckley, 4 Gerry Daly, 5 Peter Daniel, 6 Colin Todd, 7 Terry Curran, 8 Bruce Rioch, 9 Don Masson, 10 Charlie George, 11 Gerry Ryan.
Substitutions: Steve Powell (12) came on for Gerry Ryan(11).
Nottingham Forest
1 Peter Shilton, 2 Viv Anderson, 3 Colin Barrett, 4 John McGovern, 5 David Needham, 6 Kenny Burns, 7 Martin O'Neill, 8 Archie Gemmill, 9 Peter Withe, 10 Tony Woodcock, 11 John Robertson.
Attendance 36,500
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| A cartoon I drew before this match |
Derby County
1 John Middleton, 2 David Langan, 3 Steve Buckley, 4 Gerry Daly, 5 Peter Daniel, 6 Colin Todd, 7 Terry Curran, 8 Bruce Rioch, 9 Don Masson, 10 Charlie George, 11 Gerry Ryan.
Substitutions: Steve Powell (12) came on for Gerry Ryan(11).
Nottingham Forest
1 Peter Shilton, 2 Viv Anderson, 3 Colin Barrett, 4 John McGovern, 5 David Needham, 6 Kenny Burns, 7 Martin O'Neill, 8 Archie Gemmill, 9 Peter Withe, 10 Tony Woodcock, 11 John Robertson.
Attendance 36,500
The Match
Again, memory fails me here. I have hardly any memory of the day. All I do remember is that we sat in the Ley Stand and that it was a very tight affair to get into your seat and then away again afterwards. I don't know how I got there and I have no recollections from the game itself which is very sad because, reading all the accounts, it was a great one. (See the Guardian report below.)
Woodcock, Rioch. Rioch, then Rioch for a third time, had shots at goal. Then Curran forced a save from Shilton. A Woodcock corner was headed onto the post by Colin Barrett. Robertson had one cleared off the line. George had a shot saved by Shilton. and Middleton saved from O'Neill. All this before half time!
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| Colin Barrett sends a header crashing against the post in the first half |
More shots in the second half: George, then Woodcock. Needham. Rioch and Rioch again. Powell and Curran. Finally Withe with a wickedly deflected shot almost won it for Forest but by all accounts it was a fair result.
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| Withe almost grabs the winner near the end |
This was the only match out of a run of 17 league games that Forest failed to score.
Other Games
The other results went just about as badly as they could have for Forest that day. All four of the nearest in the chasing pack won and so the gap at the top narrowed to four points. As a result, three of them, were now on better form than Forest: Liverpool, Manchester City and Arsenal.
Coventry thrashed Chelsea 5-1 to leapfrog over West Brom, who lost at home to Liverpool.
Another remarkable result was Middlesbrough's impressive 4-2 win at St James' Park, Newcastle, which included a rare goal from fellow Kirkby lad, Stuart Boam. My 'Boro fan mate at Nottingham University had a red sweat shirt made with the score simply emblazoned on it in white. He wore that shirt for years.
Lots of goals that day but the average for the whole season was still a very poor 2.6 goals/game.
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| The gap closes to four points |
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| Ian Wallace closes the gap |
Elsewhere Mansfield Town's slide towards relegation continued as they lost 2-1 at the Dell against Southampton and Spurs fought out a 3-3 draw at the original "Lane" against Notts County.
Forest's next opponents, 3rd Division Bury (who we had drawn away in the League Cup 5th Round) got a dull looking 0-0 draw at Sincil Bank, Lincoln.
Match Day Programmes and Rags
Normally I end these blogs with a scanned copy of the match day programme.
Not this time.
Derby County got into the irritating culture of producing a match day newspaper (called, of course, "The Ram") rather than a proper programme. The advantage of it was, I suppose, that it was cheaper to produce and it did provide a lot of reading material.
The down side of these newspapers is that they rapidly get very tatty. Hardly a souvenir, then. I did buy one but it must have got lost somewhere in the 40 years since this game so I can't share it. If anyone has a copy, please scan it or photograph it and sent it me and I'll include it.
There were a few clubs that followed Derby's lead here. Other clubs that I remember who did the same thing were Oxford United, Plymouth Argyle and Notts County.
Not this time.
Derby County got into the irritating culture of producing a match day newspaper (called, of course, "The Ram") rather than a proper programme. The advantage of it was, I suppose, that it was cheaper to produce and it did provide a lot of reading material.
The down side of these newspapers is that they rapidly get very tatty. Hardly a souvenir, then. I did buy one but it must have got lost somewhere in the 40 years since this game so I can't share it. If anyone has a copy, please scan it or photograph it and sent it me and I'll include it.
There were a few clubs that followed Derby's lead here. Other clubs that I remember who did the same thing were Oxford United, Plymouth Argyle and Notts County.
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| Oxford United's rag |
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| Ram Rag |
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