One thing guaranteed to needle a Forest fan is seeing their team labelled "Notts Forest". It might seem trivial or pedantic to outsiders but if you are from Notts (that is Nottinghamshire, a County, right?), it's a bit like making a really stupid and ignorant spelling mistake. It's not that Forest fans have got any particular hatred of Notts County. I think it's fair to say we all quite like them. (Not sure if the reverse is true!) Certainly the rivalry with County is nothing compared to that with Derby County and, to a lesser extent, Leicester City.
So next up for the tricky trees, 40 years ago, was a match where no-one would make that mistake. A real local derby - perhaps the original one: A League Cup 4th Round tie against the oldest enemy in football - Notts County. After their win at QPR on Saturday, it was nice to get a break from the pressure of being top of the league.
Forest were riding high at the top of the First Division whilst Notts had started terribly - 2nd from bottom in Division Two having only just got their first win a few days ago away to Charlton Athletic. So... an easy win, right? On paper one would think so, but this is football, as they say, and anything can happen, particularly in local derbies.
Besides, Notts were a jinx side for Forest. In the last four seasons before the match covered here, County and Forest had been neck and neck in the second division and Notts County had frustrated Forest regularly, especially at the City Ground. Their 2-0 win on Boxing Day 1975 got Allan Brown sacked, paving the way for Brian Clough, and we even lost to them at home in the promotion season. So, Notts County certainly got me hating them to the point of drawing some derogatory cartoons, usually targeted at their centre back Brian Stubbs...
So when Forest drew County in the next round of the League Cup I was looking forward to the game with relish. Here was an opportunity to really put them to the sword and show that we really had left them behind.
As I write this, on 24th October 2017, it seems odd that back on this date in 1977, the League Cup 3rd Round had still not been played. Tonight, this year, the 4th Round ties are about to be played and yet back in 1977 it had been 56 days since the 2nd round, that thumping 5-0 win against West Ham United at the City Ground. The same night, Notts County had an impressive away win at first division Birmingham City to seal their place in the 3rd round, and get drawn away to us.
If you measure the distance of the two nearest points on the grounds on Google Earth, you'll find they're only about 225 meters apart.
The clubs had been already playing league football for 80 seasons and for most of that time Forest had the edge over County: 55 out of 80, to be precise, although there was rarely much between the clubs until recent times. Notts finished 22 places above Forest in 1914-15 and that remained the biggest gap between the sides until 1958. Since then though, Notts often languished in the lower leagues and Forest were massively on top, peaking in 1966-67 when Forest finished 86 places above them. That's just 5 short of the maximum possible for two league clubs, as Forest finished 2nd in the First Division whilst County were 5th from the bottom of the Fourth Division.
Despite being the oldest club in the league, Notts have a pretty bare trophy cabinet. They won the F.A. Cup in 1893-94 - beating Bolton Wanderers 4-1 in front of 37,000 at Goodison Park - and were runners up three years earlier, but apart from winning the second division three times and the lower leagues a few more, they've never really been any kind of force in football, not since the very earliest years, anyway.
To find their best ever three-year spell in the league you have to go back almost to the beginning. From the 2nd season ever, through to the 5th, they were the 6th best team in England.
They finished 3rd in the League for a second time in the first full season of the 20th century but that was pretty much it. County fans would have to wait a long time to have something to really shout about and that would take the form of the bizarre signing of Tommy Lawton.
It's hard to imagine it from today's perspective, but let's try.
Imagine someone like Wayne Rooney. As an 18 year old, playing for Everton, he wins the First Division title and is top scorer. (I know that's hard to imagine this the day after the sacking of Ronald Koeman as Everton lie 3rd from the bottom, but bear with me). Unfortunately for Lawton, the second world war coincided with the peak of his career and so he only won 22 England caps, but he was certainly one of the best strikers in the country at the time. After the war, he joined First Division rivals Chelsea and top scored for them too.
At this time, Notts County were a mid-table side in League Division 3 South, which is kind of like being bottom of the Third Division today, assuming both North and South 3rd tier sides were the same standard.
Now, get this: Then, in November 1947, Third Division Notts County buy Tommy Lawton from First Division Chelsea for a, then, British record transfer of £20,000. This paired him alongside another Notts County great, Jackie Sewell, who also played for England and scored 97 goals in 178 appearances for Notts.
If someone like Plymouth Argyle bought Jamie Vardy today, it wouldn't do the comparison justice. Apparently it was all down to personalities. Lawton wanted to work with Arthur Stollery who was Notts County boss having been his "masseur and friend" at Chelsea and the Notts County vice chairman Harold Walsmley promised him a job after retirement! Not quite the same as a top player's contract today!
It took them a few years, but the fee did eventually pay off when Notts won promotion back to the Second Division in 1949-50. They scored 95 goals in the process, Lawton scoring 22 times in 23 appearances. Crowds at Meadow Lane soured into the 40,000s regularly in this period but it never got much better for Notts on the field. By now Lawton was into his 30s and clearly on the "Wayne". Lawton moved on to Brentford, albeit leaving Notts in comfort in the Second Division. Tommy Lawton ended up playing more games (151) for Notts County than any other club and scored 90 goals for them.
Notts reached the giddy heights of 7th in Division Two before their decline started. Lawton had returned as manager when they finally got relegated back to the third tier and spend the next 15 years or so in the doldrums.
By the time I started watching football, in the early 1970s, Notts County were a bit of a joke, to be honest. They were no threat to Forest and played in the same division as Mansfield the first full season I took an interest in, 1971-72. I watched them play at Field Mill twice that season, once in the league (a 1-1 draw in front of a massive 16,758 crowd) and once in the County Cup.
My first visit to Meadow Lane, on 4th March 1972, was also unforgettable. This was another 3rd Division match but this time against a resurgent Aston Villa. Villa won 3-0 in front of 34,208 crowd.
The ground (and the fans) seemed to be stuck in the 1950s. The "round head" stand, as we called it, (West Stand, I think, was it's proper name) looked like something out of the last century and the majority of the County fans that went in it seem to be from a long gone era. Whether they were standing or sitting, all you'd see was a homogeneous mass of cloth caps with cigarette or pipe smoke drifting from them. They were a miserable lot and seemed to still have a chip on their shoulder that despite the signing of Tommy Lawton (which they'd all be keen to tell you about) County never got higher than 7th in the second tier, not to mention their obvious disdain at being eclipsed by Forest. The only "song" you'd ever hear them sing was a monotonous "Caanty... Caanty!".
This was the 84th meeting in a "Nationally recognised" competitive match (No County Cup games here, but Anglo-Scottish is included) and Forest were ahead 33-27 on victories.
In all those games, only 4 were won (by either side) by more than three goals. 30 of the wins were by just one. Forest had beaten County 5-0 twice, once in 1900 in the First Division and again in 1953 in Division Two. Notts' best win over us, 6-2, was in 1932. The four most common scores, over the years, were - you'll never guess! - 2-1 (15 times), 1-0 (12 times), 1-1 (10 times) and then both 0-0 and 2-0 (9 times.)
Forest's best run against County was between 1931 and 1933 when they beat them five times on the trot. They were undefeated in eight successive derby matches between 1921 and 1928. Notts, on the other hand, had had a hat trick of wins against Forest twice (across the war years 1935 - 1950, and between 1954 and 1955.) Their best unbeaten run against Forest was eight. It started on 3rd March 1974 and it was still in place as the teams went into this match in 1977. In fact, the last time Forest beat Notts County at home in a competitive game other than the County Cup was 24 years earlier in 1953 - one of the 5-0 thrashings. Since then we had faced a run of six home defeats out of seven. Confirmation, if any were needed, that Notts had become Forest's jinx side.
Another reason for Forest to beat them, then.
Sirrel was only 55 at the time - but somehow seemed as old as some of their oldest fans. Notts County and Jimmy Sirrel were a perfect match.
The Teams
Alongside Sam was the robotic Brian Stubbs. 6 foot 2 of thuggery, if I remember rightly - which I probably don't. Who else? No Don Masson, no Les Bradd. Pedro Richards, the right back was a colourful character (literally) and then there was Notts County's record signing. You know... the famous Ray O'Brien. A steal from Manchester United at £45,000.
So next up for the tricky trees, 40 years ago, was a match where no-one would make that mistake. A real local derby - perhaps the original one: A League Cup 4th Round tie against the oldest enemy in football - Notts County. After their win at QPR on Saturday, it was nice to get a break from the pressure of being top of the league.
Forest were riding high at the top of the First Division whilst Notts had started terribly - 2nd from bottom in Division Two having only just got their first win a few days ago away to Charlton Athletic. So... an easy win, right? On paper one would think so, but this is football, as they say, and anything can happen, particularly in local derbies.
Besides, Notts were a jinx side for Forest. In the last four seasons before the match covered here, County and Forest had been neck and neck in the second division and Notts County had frustrated Forest regularly, especially at the City Ground. Their 2-0 win on Boxing Day 1975 got Allan Brown sacked, paving the way for Brian Clough, and we even lost to them at home in the promotion season. So, Notts County certainly got me hating them to the point of drawing some derogatory cartoons, usually targeted at their centre back Brian Stubbs...
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| I used to relieve my frustrations on Notts County's defensive tactics by drawing cartoons |
So when Forest drew County in the next round of the League Cup I was looking forward to the game with relish. Here was an opportunity to really put them to the sword and show that we really had left them behind.
As I write this, on 24th October 2017, it seems odd that back on this date in 1977, the League Cup 3rd Round had still not been played. Tonight, this year, the 4th Round ties are about to be played and yet back in 1977 it had been 56 days since the 2nd round, that thumping 5-0 win against West Ham United at the City Ground. The same night, Notts County had an impressive away win at first division Birmingham City to seal their place in the 3rd round, and get drawn away to us.The Longest Running Local Derby
Before getting into the match itself, I have to use this opportunity to discuss Notts County's long and proud history, alongside Forest's almost as long, but slightly prouder one.
No-one has a longer football history than Notts County that is still in the league. Sheffield F.C. are the oldest independent football club, that is a club not associated with some previously existing organisation, like a School, Hospital or University. They were formed in 1857. Like many clubs, of course, Sheffield never actually made it into the league and are certainly not there now. They currently play in step 8 of the football league pyramid, in the Northern Premier League.
Of the clubs currently in the league, these are the oldest ten...
There can be no doubt that Notts County are the oldest current league club, having been formed in 1862. Forest were formed just three years later making them the 2nd (or perhaps 3rd, depending on who you believe) league club in England. Stoke City fans will, no doubt, complain at my table above - that their team should be listed No 2 there, but according to Don Wright (Forest's official historian - and he can't be biased, can he?) The original Stoke City, claimed to have been founded in 1863, was, according to historians John Ballard and Paul Suff, actually formed in 1868 and went into liquidation in 1907. The current club was, Don Wright writes, formed then. So, unless someone can convince me (or actually, Don Wright) otherwise, that's the table of oldest clubs I'm sticking with.
If there is a spot of controversy over whether Forest and Notts County are the two oldest English League Clubs, there can be no doubt they are the two closest. Only Dundee and Dundee United are closer in the Britain.
No-one has a longer football history than Notts County that is still in the league. Sheffield F.C. are the oldest independent football club, that is a club not associated with some previously existing organisation, like a School, Hospital or University. They were formed in 1857. Like many clubs, of course, Sheffield never actually made it into the league and are certainly not there now. They currently play in step 8 of the football league pyramid, in the Northern Premier League.
Of the clubs currently in the league, these are the oldest ten...
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| The Ten Oldest English League Clubs |
If there is a spot of controversy over whether Forest and Notts County are the two oldest English League Clubs, there can be no doubt they are the two closest. Only Dundee and Dundee United are closer in the Britain.
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| The nearest away match |
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| 225 meters apart |
Despite being the oldest club in the league, Notts have a pretty bare trophy cabinet. They won the F.A. Cup in 1893-94 - beating Bolton Wanderers 4-1 in front of 37,000 at Goodison Park - and were runners up three years earlier, but apart from winning the second division three times and the lower leagues a few more, they've never really been any kind of force in football, not since the very earliest years, anyway.
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| Notts County's one F.A. Cup Winning Team 1893-94 |
To find their best ever three-year spell in the league you have to go back almost to the beginning. From the 2nd season ever, through to the 5th, they were the 6th best team in England.
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| County at their best... in 1891 |
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| Tommy Lawton |
Imagine someone like Wayne Rooney. As an 18 year old, playing for Everton, he wins the First Division title and is top scorer. (I know that's hard to imagine this the day after the sacking of Ronald Koeman as Everton lie 3rd from the bottom, but bear with me). Unfortunately for Lawton, the second world war coincided with the peak of his career and so he only won 22 England caps, but he was certainly one of the best strikers in the country at the time. After the war, he joined First Division rivals Chelsea and top scored for them too.
At this time, Notts County were a mid-table side in League Division 3 South, which is kind of like being bottom of the Third Division today, assuming both North and South 3rd tier sides were the same standard.
Now, get this: Then, in November 1947, Third Division Notts County buy Tommy Lawton from First Division Chelsea for a, then, British record transfer of £20,000. This paired him alongside another Notts County great, Jackie Sewell, who also played for England and scored 97 goals in 178 appearances for Notts.
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| Jackie Sewell and Tommy Lawton - from a different era |
If someone like Plymouth Argyle bought Jamie Vardy today, it wouldn't do the comparison justice. Apparently it was all down to personalities. Lawton wanted to work with Arthur Stollery who was Notts County boss having been his "masseur and friend" at Chelsea and the Notts County vice chairman Harold Walsmley promised him a job after retirement! Not quite the same as a top player's contract today!
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| Lawton scoring at Meadow Lane |
Notts reached the giddy heights of 7th in Division Two before their decline started. Lawton had returned as manager when they finally got relegated back to the third tier and spend the next 15 years or so in the doldrums.
By the time I started watching football, in the early 1970s, Notts County were a bit of a joke, to be honest. They were no threat to Forest and played in the same division as Mansfield the first full season I took an interest in, 1971-72. I watched them play at Field Mill twice that season, once in the league (a 1-1 draw in front of a massive 16,758 crowd) and once in the County Cup.
My first visit to Meadow Lane, on 4th March 1972, was also unforgettable. This was another 3rd Division match but this time against a resurgent Aston Villa. Villa won 3-0 in front of 34,208 crowd.
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| My first visit to Meadow Lane |
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| Caanty thud-thud-thud... Caanty! |
This was the 84th meeting in a "Nationally recognised" competitive match (No County Cup games here, but Anglo-Scottish is included) and Forest were ahead 33-27 on victories.
In all those games, only 4 were won (by either side) by more than three goals. 30 of the wins were by just one. Forest had beaten County 5-0 twice, once in 1900 in the First Division and again in 1953 in Division Two. Notts' best win over us, 6-2, was in 1932. The four most common scores, over the years, were - you'll never guess! - 2-1 (15 times), 1-0 (12 times), 1-1 (10 times) and then both 0-0 and 2-0 (9 times.)
Forest's best run against County was between 1931 and 1933 when they beat them five times on the trot. They were undefeated in eight successive derby matches between 1921 and 1928. Notts, on the other hand, had had a hat trick of wins against Forest twice (across the war years 1935 - 1950, and between 1954 and 1955.) Their best unbeaten run against Forest was eight. It started on 3rd March 1974 and it was still in place as the teams went into this match in 1977. In fact, the last time Forest beat Notts County at home in a competitive game other than the County Cup was 24 years earlier in 1953 - one of the 5-0 thrashings. Since then we had faced a run of six home defeats out of seven. Confirmation, if any were needed, that Notts had become Forest's jinx side.
Another reason for Forest to beat them, then.
Jimmy Sirrel
Notts County were managed by the dire (or should that be "dour"!) Glaswegian, Jimmy Sirrel. What a character! Notts were always going to over-achieve under him but even the most hard-nosed Forest fan warmed to him. |
| Jimmy Sirrel, Notts County Legend |
The Teams
Notts County's team that night included big Sammy Chapman, now playing across the Trent after making over 350 appearances (if you include substitutions) for Forest. Sam was featured in the match day programme (see later).
Alongside Sam was the robotic Brian Stubbs. 6 foot 2 of thuggery, if I remember rightly - which I probably don't. Who else? No Don Masson, no Les Bradd. Pedro Richards, the right back was a colourful character (literally) and then there was Notts County's record signing. You know... the famous Ray O'Brien. A steal from Manchester United at £45,000. |
| Ray O'Brien - Notts County's Record Signing |
Chris Woods debut - younger than I was, at 17 years 11 months and 9 days
Forest's team had a much bigger story in it. Clough and Taylor, as usual, tried to play their best eleven, exactly the same as every week. Unfortunately, because Peter Shilton had already played in the League Cup for Stoke City (at Bristol City away, which they lost 1-0) he was cup tied and couldn't play. As John Middleton had gone to Derby County in part exchange for Archie Gemmil that gave an opportunity to a young goalkeeper, Chris Woods.
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| Chris Woods - Forest debut at 17 but would never make a single league appearance |
This was the first time I'd ever watched a player (in a "proper" game that I had to pay to get in) that was younger than me. I was born 88 days before Chris. It's a phenomenon you soon get used to as the years pass by. Then, in the blink of an eye, there are few players still older than you and you start to get older than the youngest managers. This kind of thing just gets worse. After a while you start getting older than politicians and even the party leaders and prime ministers. When William Hague became leader of the Tories in 1996, I started to encroach on that territory too.
I can't help chipping in here with a chart comparing my age to the three main party leaders in the UK. I only do so because right now, as I write this, I am younger than all three of them. It probably won't last long and afterwards it'll probably never happen again! In another 40 years, unless Kurzweil is right, I'll be dead!
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| I'm currently YOUNGER than all three major party leaders in the UK. It won't last long. |
Anyway, back to football and Forest v Notts County in the League Cup in 1977.
Woods kept a clean sheet that night but, amazingly, would never make a single League appearance for Forest in a long and impressive career which stretched until 1998 having made 603 league appearances elsewhere - mostly for Norwich City.
Peter Shilton's magic, passed to him via the great Gordon Banks, seems to have been passed on to Chris Woods as he would make 43 appearances for England himself.
Chris Woods was featured in the programme (see below) and more on him through this cup run...
Nottingham Forest
1 Chris Woods, 2 Viv Anderson, 3 Colin Barrett, 4 John McGovern, 5 Larry Lloyd, 6 Kenny Burns, 7 Martin O'Neill, 8 Ian Bowyer, 9 Peter Withe, 10 Tony Woodcock, 11 John Robertson.
Goals: Ian Bowyer 2, Tony Woodcock 1, John Robertson 1 (pen.).
Notts County
1 Eric McManus, 2 Pedro Richards, 3 Ray O'Brien, 4 Sammy Chapman, 5 Brian Stubbs, 6 Tristram Benjamin, 7 Steve Carter, 8 Steve Smith, 9 John Sims, 10 Arthur Mann, 11 Mick Vinter.
Substitutions: Ian Scanlon(12) came on for John Sims (9).
Attendance: 26,931.
1 Chris Woods, 2 Viv Anderson, 3 Colin Barrett, 4 John McGovern, 5 Larry Lloyd, 6 Kenny Burns, 7 Martin O'Neill, 8 Ian Bowyer, 9 Peter Withe, 10 Tony Woodcock, 11 John Robertson.
Goals: Ian Bowyer 2, Tony Woodcock 1, John Robertson 1 (pen.).
Notts County
1 Eric McManus, 2 Pedro Richards, 3 Ray O'Brien, 4 Sammy Chapman, 5 Brian Stubbs, 6 Tristram Benjamin, 7 Steve Carter, 8 Steve Smith, 9 John Sims, 10 Arthur Mann, 11 Mick Vinter.
Substitutions: Ian Scanlon(12) came on for John Sims (9).
Attendance: 26,931.
The Match
This was my 14th match of the season and 230th ever. I have no strong memory of the game but I stood in the terrace at the front of the Main Stand. So what follows is courtesy of John Shipley's account again. A John Robertson penalty gave Forest the lead in the 16th minute after Tony Woodcock had his legs "taken away" by none other than big Sammy Chapman. Chris Woods made one save from John Sims before half time. 1-0 to Forest.
Tony Woodcock grabbed a goal straight after the break, dashing any hopes County had of a revival. Jimmy Sirrel switched Ian Scanlon for Sims but Ian Bowyer scored a controversial goal (looked off side apparently) to make it 3-0 on 65 minutes and then a 4th with five minutes to go.
So, Forest through, and the County Jinx finally killed!! Luvely, mi duck!!
Tony Woodcock grabbed a goal straight after the break, dashing any hopes County had of a revival. Jimmy Sirrel switched Ian Scanlon for Sims but Ian Bowyer scored a controversial goal (looked off side apparently) to make it 3-0 on 65 minutes and then a 4th with five minutes to go.
So, Forest through, and the County Jinx finally killed!! Luvely, mi duck!!
Other 3rd Round Ties
Also in the hat for the 4th round would be Arsenal (who beat Southampton at home 2-0 in front of over 40,000 at Highbury), Everton (who beat Forest's next opponents Middlesbrough after a replay), Manchester City (who beat Luton after two replays), West Bromwich Albion, Aston Villa (who would draw Forest away), Leeds United (who beat Colchester United the team that had giant killed them in the F.A. Cup a few years back) Liverpool (who beat Derby), and Coventry City (who won at Spurs.)
So, on Saturday, it would be back to league action with a fixture at home to Middlesbrough, Cloughie & Taylor's old club.
So, on Saturday, it would be back to league action with a fixture at home to Middlesbrough, Cloughie & Taylor's old club.
The Programme
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